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Growing Down: A Progressive Integral Podcast

Growing Down: A Progressive Integral Podcast

By Jeremy Johnson, Matt Hudkins

Explore the possibility of aligning progressive culture--the new "radical majority"--with integral philosophy and metamodern politics.
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#3. Developmental Politics ft. Steve McIntosh [Interview Series]

Growing Down: A Progressive Integral PodcastMar 30, 2020

Not Necessarily Politics

Not Necessarily Politics

Frayed. That's the word I think of when I think of how I left Growing Down. Growing Down was last published in 2020. A lot of water has flown under the bridge since that time. Here is an update of cohosts Jeremy and Ryan: Jeremy is engaged in other projects but is up for reunions now and then. Ryan has created a wonderful political podcast "Meta-Ideological Politics" with Nate Coffman that deserves a listen to. 

As for me, I was not ready to let Growing Down, or GD, go because I believe the panel of thinkers we interviewed are the foundation for future integral politics. I want to build upon their insights. 

There are two subjects for the episode. The first is closure.  I am not certain of the future of Growing Down, but I do know that the idea that birthed GD is still very needed today. Before giving up on it, I wanted to explore the subject of political engagement. Growing Down was my political engagement-at least, how I measured it. Without this political outlet, I found myself disinterested in the current political narrative. 

There was a wonderful satirical sitcom in the 80's called "Not Necessarily the News". As a child, I watched it with joy to watch some of the world leaders make comedic faux pas' over and over. If anything, it made politics fun. To the skeptics that say politics can't be fun I say this: you are probably right. But -- 

Let's try. 

I asked Canadian metamodernist Brent Cooper (and past interviewee of GD) to cohost to help me unravel some anxiety I have about the future of politics and this podcast: How do politics fit into our lives? How can we transcend the left/right spectrum?  Is direct democracy a good thing? How can we stay politically engaged when all we want to do is quit? And --

Should we quit? Not necessarily. 

Be a working class hero and donate a $1 to Brent's project:

Feb 22, 202245:29
Healing and Wholeness Through and Beyond Racial Identity, ft. Ashby Goodrum & Brad Kershner

Healing and Wholeness Through and Beyond Racial Identity, ft. Ashby Goodrum & Brad Kershner

Brad Kershner is a school leader and independent scholar, and the author of Understanding Educational Complexity: Integrating Practices and Perspectives for 21st Century Leadership. His research, teaching, and writing cover a wide range of interdependent topics, including education, leadership, parenting, race, technology, metamodernism, integral theory, meditation, complexity, and developmental psychology. You can learn more about his work and access recordings of his guided meditations on Patreon.

ashby goodrum (preferred pronouns: they/we/us) works as an advanced practice nurse in primary and maternity care settings with significant experience as a bedside nurse/psychopomp and in midwifery. Some of their research and clinical interests include gender affirming care, birth equity, palliative care, cultural trauma and healing centered engagement, and transformative justice. ashby lives in Portland, Oregon which rests on traditional village sites of multiple indigenous tribes – such as the Multnomah, Clackamas, and Tualatin – who were among the land's first human caretakers.

Books mentioned: 

Thomas Hubl - Healing Collective Trauma

Karen and Barbara Fields - Racecraft

ashby mentioned:

Isabel Wilkerson - Caste

Resmaa Menakem - My Grandmother's Hands

also: Danielle Allen, Anthony Appiah, Mariame Kaba

could also add:

Albert Murray - Omni-Americans

Carlos Hoyt - The Arc of a Bad Idea
For a deeper understanding of transgenerational trauma (a reading list):

Mariame Kaba and  other transformative justice resources

Michael Yellow Bird expert on neurodecolonization and indigenous mindfulness

Karen Murphy explores how to prepare the way for civic healing

Ruha Benjamin on “New Jim Code" - range of discriminatory designs that encode inequity

Ruth Wilson Gilmore on racial capitalism

Robin D.G. Kelley  on how capitalism has been racial from the beginning

Edward E. Baptist, author of The Half Has Never Been Told: Slavery and the Making of American Capitalism

David R. Williams on how racism makes us sick

"How to Unlearn Racism" Scientific American article

Psychology of Radical Healing Syllabus

ReRooted Podcast with Francesca M. Maximé

Maia Szalavitz on addiction as a learning disorder

Sarah Peyton, facilitator and neuroscience educator

bell hooks, groundbreaking cultural critic and author

Dec 02, 202001:42:34
Talking the Future of the Left ft. Ben Burgis
Oct 22, 202001:28:16
MMT and the Politics of Care w/ Andres Bernal

MMT and the Politics of Care w/ Andres Bernal

Andres Bernal returns to Growing Down to discuss the current political landscape and how the principles of MMT can create a new framework for how we view money. Integral Politics advocates for a new paradigm that transcends the left/right binary. What might a new society look like if the conversation shifted from "How are you going to pay for it?" to "How can we create a flourishing society?" 

Aug 24, 202001:18:11
20. Subtle Activism ft. David Nicol

20. Subtle Activism ft. David Nicol

Author David Nicol joins the GD podcast to discuss his book, Subtle Activism: The Inner Dimension of Social and Planetary Transformation, and the important role subtle activist can play for the local and global challenges of the meta-crisis.

About Subtle Activism: "Can awakened consciousness contribute to social change and, if so, how? David Nicol introduces the concept of "subtle activism to describe the use of consciousness-based practices like meditation and prayer to support collective transformation, such as global meditation directed toward peaceful resolution of a conflict. Subtle activism represents a bridge between the consciousness movement and the movements for peace, environmental sustainability, and social justice. It is not a substitute for physical action but rather a potentially crucial component of a more integrated approach to social chance." 

Learn more about David at Earth Rising


Featured Intro/Outro Track "Nobita" by Smith the Mister | Follow GD on Twitter: Jeremy //  Matt //  Ryan

Aug 15, 202001:23:40
19. Talking Metamodern Politics ft. Hanzi Freinacht
Aug 13, 202001:24:08
Michael Brooks Tribute - Towards an Integralist Cosmopolitan Socialism
Aug 03, 202002:05:27
Addiction: America's Dark Night of the Soul w/ John Dupuy

Addiction: America's Dark Night of the Soul w/ John Dupuy

John Dupuy, the author of Integral Recovery, reflects on how politics and addiction intersect. As a country, we may be experiencing a dark night of the soul. The opioid crisis highlights a wound in our country that we must be brave enough to face. Can an integral practice provide a clue to addicts and non-addicts alike to how we can flourish into our best self, community and country? 

Jul 30, 202001:23:47
The New Bottom Line w/ Michael Lerner

The New Bottom Line w/ Michael Lerner

Class is in session! The co-hosts of Growing Down sit front row as Rabbi Michael Lerner shares insights from his new book Revolutionary Love and his rich history of activism for social rights. We were honored to be in the audience and we hope you feel the same. 

Excerpt from Revoltionary Love:

"We seek a new bottom line that judges our institutions, our economy, our political lives, our legal system, our cultural institutions, our educational system, and every aspect of our society as productive, efficient, or rational to the extent that they maximize our human capacities to be loving, generous, and caring toward each other and the Earth, ethically and environmentally responsible, and committed to social, economic, and environmental justice; and to the extent to which they promote joy, playfulness, compassion and empathy, self-acceptance, humor, and aesthetic creativity, health and thanksgiving for life in all its forms, love of learning science and literature, repentance and forgiveness, treatment of all human beings as embodiments of the sacred and not just instrumentally as means to our own ends, and a response to the universe and our planet Earth that is filled with awe, wonder, and radical amazement (rather than seeing them only as "resources" to fill human needs). " -Rabbi Michael Lerner

Jul 30, 202001:05:42
The National Popular Vote w/ Eileen Reavey

The National Popular Vote w/ Eileen Reavey

Eileen Reavey of the National Popular Vote campaign joins co-hosts Ryan and Matt to discuss the history of the electoral college and the movement to create an interstate compact that would guarantee the presidency to the candidate who receives the the most popular votes. Join us to discussion its importance to democratization politics. 

Jul 30, 202001:07:14
The Ecosattva Path ft. David Loy

The Ecosattva Path ft. David Loy

In this episode of Growing Down, David Loy, Buddhist teacher and author, shares his views on how Buddhist teachings can be applied to the spiritual and ecological crises of today's age. He advocates for a dual activism for the modern Boddhisatva, or Ecosattva: one of spiritual practice and social engagement. Can Buddhism provide an insight to integral politics by shifting the narrative from "good vs. evil" to one of "delusion vs. "awakening"? Please join us for this wonderful discussion. 

You can find David Loy's work at:

Jul 15, 202001:26:18
#12. On the Way to an Integral Culture ft. Stephanie Lepp

#12. On the Way to an Integral Culture ft. Stephanie Lepp

In this episode of Growing Down, Matt, Ryan and Jeremy are joined by Stephanie Lepp. What happens when we take conceptual tools like Integral Theory, or metamodernism, and use them to, well, grow down? To create, engage with--make culture?   

Stephanie does just that. She is the host of the podcast show Reckonings and the YouTube series Infinite Lunchbox. Together we explore her inspiration behind these shows, navigating the culture wars, how Youtubers like Contrapoints (Natalie Wynn) and journalists like Krystal Ball (The Hill) are arguably integral thinkers, and media strategies for (integrally) engaging our present culture of hyper-fragmentation.   


Infinite Lunchbox:  

Uncanceling Contrapoints:  

Steph's next appearance on a Growing Down panel episode:  

Follow Stephanie on Twitter:

Jun 24, 202001:22:04
#11: Prepositional Theology ft. Bruce Alderman

#11: Prepositional Theology ft. Bruce Alderman

The Growing Down podcast is honored to be joined by Bruce Alderman. Bruce is an adjunct faculty in the College of Psychology at John F. Kennedy University (JFKU). He received his master’s degree in Integral Psychology, with an emphasis on Transpersonal Counseling Psychology, from JFKU in 2005. Bruce is the founder of Integral Stage, a new YouTube and podcast series featuring conversations integral thinkers and media creators.   

More about Bruce: 

Publications:   Alderman, B. (2018). Sophia speaks: An integral grammar of philosophy. In S. Esbjörn-Hargens & M. Schwartz (Eds.), Dancing with Sophia: Integral philosophy on the verge. Albany, NY: SUNY.  

Integral Stage: 

Integral Post-Metaphysical Spirituality: The Integral Stage:

Jun 24, 202001:21:40
#10. Integral Justice and Black Leadership ft. David Hartful Jr

#10. Integral Justice and Black Leadership ft. David Hartful Jr

In this episode, the Growing Down podcast interviews David Hartful Jr., to talk about the protests and riots erupting in America, following the murder of George Floyd by police, from the perspective of Integral Theory and Spiral Dynamics. David is a researcher and founder of Black Leadership Analysis, (, which explores leadership practices in black communities through Spiral Dynamics, Integral Theory, and practices of self-realization.   

  • David’s YouTube channel:  
  • Dr Zenju Earthlyn Manuel:  
  • Dr. Bhimrao Ambedkar:
Jun 22, 202001:14:06
#9. What’s next, integrations, and ideal political near-futures

#9. What’s next, integrations, and ideal political near-futures

Growing Down co-hosts percolate recent interviews and attempt to integrate their diverse meanings (from changing public perception around more creation, MMT, evolving value systems, and other themes that have emerged on the show).

May 16, 202001:20:59
#8. Reclaiming the Power of Money Creation ft. Rev. Delman Coates

#8. Reclaiming the Power of Money Creation ft. Rev. Delman Coates

In this episode, the Growing Down podcast is deeply honored to interview Rev. Delman Coates on reclaiming the power of money creation, the integral connection between liberation theology, social justice, and spiritual traditions, and how we can transform the public imagination around money. 

Dr. Delman Coates has served as Senior Pastor of Mt. Ennon Baptist Church in Clinton, Maryland for over 16 years. Under his leadership, the church has been recognized as one of the fastest growing congregations in the country and now has over 15,000 members. Delman is the founder of the Our Money Campaign. He has published several articles and has also been featured on a number of news outlets including MSNBC, CNN, Fox News, VH1, and The New York Times. 

He has a Ph.D. in New Testament and Early Christianity from Columbia University as well as Master of Philosophy in Religion from Columbia University, a Master of Divinity from Harvard Divinity School and a Bachelors in Religion from Morehouse College.

More show notes: 

May 08, 202001:28:19
#7. Do Our Models Get in the Way? ft. Edward Berge
Apr 29, 202001:32:02
#6. Transformational Policies and MMT ft. Andrés Bernal
Apr 22, 202001:46:56
#5. The Emergentsia and the Teal New Deal ft. Brent Cooper

#5. The Emergentsia and the Teal New Deal ft. Brent Cooper

In episode 5 of Growing Down podcast, we are joined by metamodern researcher and political sociologist Brent Cooper. Who are the Emergentsia? Brent talks about his popular Emerge series (read Part 1 here:, how he came to become a metamodern researcher, and what communities that make up the Emergentsia can do to stay engaged and literate in transformational politics (like the integral community's "Teal New Deal"). 

Show notes:

Follow Brent on Twitter:

The Abs-Tract Organization:

Read more of Brent's essays on Medium:

Apr 14, 202001:33:58
#4. Growing Down into Spirit, ft. Paul Smith, Luke Healy
Apr 06, 202001:40:32
#3. Developmental Politics ft. Steve McIntosh [Interview Series]
Mar 30, 202001:34:05
#2. Coronanomics
Mar 28, 202001:36:25
#1. Introducing the Podcast

#1. Introducing the Podcast

Welcome to Growing Down!

Co-hosts Ryan, Matt and Jeremy explore the possibility of aligning progressive culture--the new "
radical majority"--with integral philosophy and metamodern politics.  Among the diverse topics we cover, we explore:

  • What "Growing Down" means to each of us
  • How the New Left and the New Right are both populist
  • What integral theory and integral philosophy can do in this new phase of cultural evolution
  • What integral philosopher Jean Gebser offers to this moment of history
  • Metamodernism and existential politics
  • Bruno Latour on the shift from modernity's globalization to the ecological politics of the Terrestrial
  • James Hillman and the need for soul psychology
  • The need and the meaning for "soul" in progressive culture as a counter to the IDW



  • Matt Hudkins
  • Ryan Nakade
  • Jeremy Johnson
Mar 28, 202001:40:11