Playing With Fire

Struggling with your own jealousy? 

Partner struggling with jealousy?

Friends/community arguing about how to handle jealousy?

This episode was MADE for you.

The jealousy roadmap emerged directly from my qualitative research on jealousy. Since then I’ve put it to the test with hundreds of people- it works. 

And I want you to have it for free because jealousy is a normal emotion and you deserve to feel empowered to work with jealousy proactively.

How does it go for you to show up with all your unique you-ness? Of course some of you is private, but it can be tricky to bring the rest of you out into your relationships. We talk with distinguished psychotherapist and renowned speaker Rachel Wright about our various experiences being out as our individual selves.

For more from Rachel:

There are things you can do to build intimacy in your relationships, and things you can do that can break it down. We're talking about wording agreements and commitments in ways that avoid leaving back doors you can sneak out of. and leave you present to your partners and yourself. And what can happen if you don't.

Non-monogamy is a big adventure. It's also a huge source of fear and dysregulation for a lot of us.

Individuating also involves quite a bit of discomfort.

Wiggly, firm, soft, rigid - peens are shape shifters. Why does that matter? Well, somebody you know might have one, and they might have feelings about that, what with the cultural pressures brought to bear on them. Guest expert Michelle Renee started Soft Cock Week, we talk with her about why she did that, what it's for, what's in it for you, and lots more about finding pleasure in life.

You're alive in a human body, so you have a nervous system, and sometimes it freaks out. What do you do then? We learned Neuro-Somatic Intelligence from the incomparable Elisabeth Kristof, Melanie Weller, and Matt Bush, and they have the same problems we all do. So we got them to share some of their stories of how they use the tools they teach us in their daily lives, and how you can learn to use them too.

How much more satisfying would work be if you brought more of yourself into your work relationships? Joli talks with Beth Hankes (she/her) about the benefits of bringing your relational skills into the business environment. Beth is the Founder and CEO of Earth and Salt in Burlington, VT, whose mission is to see all people free to live in their pleasure.

Guess what they didn't teach us in school?

HOW TO DATE.

Much less how to date MINDFULLY.

Even less-less when we are ready to date non-monogamously.

My lovely colleague and fellow Ph.D. Researcher, Dr. Marie Thouin, decided to take this matter into her own hands... She talks with us about mindful dating and how you can turn dating into something joyful!

Have you been *working* on your relationships so hard you've lost the sense of joy and pleasure of it all?

Time for something new!

Megan is an expert in coming home to our innate capacity to relate to your Self & Other by engaging with the natural world & your body

Listen in as we bask in the joy of creating something new.

Non-monogamy comes in as many forms as there are people imagining outside the norm. Imagination is the tool we use to dream the dream forward to what's next. When you follow your imagination that way you gain a better understanding of yourself.

Relationships that focus on growth don't have to be non-monogamous, but non-monogamy creates tons of opportunities to make your unconscious *stuff* conscious. It will also likely challenge you to face your relational wounds and fears. This might sound like its not a ton of fun but in practice it isn't just the tough stuff that surfaces- it also reveals deep layers of joy and pleasure. Knowing that you are in a psychological relationship makes the waves of *stuff* meaningful so you can get into the juicy fun too!

How do you handle wigging out, feeling like a mess, or in technical terms getting dysregulated? Well, we rely on tools we learned from applied neurologist Elisabeth Kristof, and now you can hear about them directly from her! Learning how to work with your unique nervous system is like getting the cheat code to be more present in your life, have access to pleasure, and be more of who you want to be even when stuff gets tough.

Swinging, sex clubs, bdsm, lifestyle - if you're into stories about these things, this episode is for you. Ashley Weller from the What's Your Position podcast joins us to share her experiences with and perspectives on sex,

Relationships require so many different skills. Do you ever struggle to process an argument, or to identify what you really want and need?

Dedeker, Emily, and Jase, the hosts of the Multiamory podcast and authors of the book Multiamory: Essential Tools for Modern Relationships, talk with us about relationship tools that work for ALL relationship structures.

This is a must-listen whether you are non-monogamous, monogamous, or just want to upgrade your communication skills for every area of your life!

Struggling with intimacy but you've already tried *everything*? Not sure what could possibly help? Surrogate partner therapy is amazing and we want you to know more about it! Brian Gibney, a Surrogate Partner Therapist talks with us about how he and other SPTs help people build trust and communication that allows them to experience physical touch with safety and connection.

Did you jump into the open waters and find the water kinda choppy? Totally normal, we're sharing:

-How the scientific method can help you do this all with less pain (really!)

-Why you are struggling with managing change

-What do you need to consider about starter boundaries for opening

There are a lot of changes to navigate, but you don't have to figure it all out by yourself. We're outlining how we recommend navigating the change, strategically avoiding pitfalls by taking a tested approach, and, bottom line, how to open up without burning things down. Or, if you're already scorched around the edges, let's talk about how to handle that too.

What if you could get to know your power intimately, and so get to know your whole self? What if you could use your story to have the life, pleasure, and relationships you want? Check out our chat with the incomparable Mollena Williams-Haas, Kink Doula, writer, performer, and podcast host. Listen to her share some of her story of power exchange and authenticity with you.

Jung has this great quote “Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.” The shadow of love is power in Jung's estimation.

I look around the world and that sure seems true on a grand scale. And in our daily life, I think we *mean* to center love rather than power in our close relationships...but in reality, most of us struggle with power.

We struggle to accept that we want unnegotiated power (entitlement)

or

We struggle to accept that we want to experience a lack of power (martyrdom)

or

We struggle to accept that having power--even power we didn't ask for-- means having great responsibility (cue the Spiderman theme song)

But we aren't taught how to share power with our partners. How to be real about the shadow element that is ruling so much of our love life.

This isn't an episode about the grand scale- we are talking about how we made a mess of our loving home by ignoring the power dynamics at work under the surface and WHAT we each did to reverse the problem.

It's no secret that we started our relationship in a bad place.

Together, we worked and learned our way from a painful, confused state to a conscious, growth-oriented, and gentle love.

We transformed that messy, painful relationship by taking a page (several thousand pages, actually) from the world of kink.

Kinksters regularly talk about power exchange--we think everyone should.

Every single day Joli hears from people who don't recognize that unnegotiated power dynamics are creating suffering in their most cherished relationships.

Want an unconventionally happy life? You've got to start dealing with the power dynamics in your relationships.

In this episode, we're talking about how we:

• make power visible in our daily life
• unpack old icky-but-comfortable manipulative habits
• practice reading each other's minds (you can too!)
• make (& keep) thoughtful, creative agreements rather than rely on social norms for security

Referenced in the episode:

If your monsters could help you live more of the life you want to live, would you get to know them, and invite them in? What about sharing them with a trusted partner in a thoughtful, conscious process?

Ken did, and it made him cry, right here in the podcast - tears of relief for the possibility of realizing potential. We're talking about letting in our darker parts, and how much our lives can expand when we do.

Do your monsters sometimes stage a take-over, hurting you and others? It happens, and it means that it is time to get conscious and practical about shadow work.

Having a plan for when your partner goes on a date makes it way more likely that you will both have a positive relationship experience, no matter how the date itself goes.

What goes into our plans? We've got three categories and lots of examples of things that help us and have proven to help Joli's clients handle the big emotions of date nights, so dig in!

Bringing up non-monogamy can be a shock to your partner's system. But if you never bring it up, you'll never even know what's possible for you.

Here's how you can plan for success and make this potentially shocking conversation an opportunity to upgrade your relational skills. 

Resources from this episode:

Libby Sinback, from Making Polyamory Work joins Joli for a conversation about one of the BEST parts of shifting from monogamy to non-monogamy: community that supports your authentic self.

More connection is why so many of us practice non-monogamy, but it's not always clear how to actually make the community we long for. Listen as we provide both inspiration and practical advice on how to find, create, and enjoy non-monogamous community!

Is polyamory something innate in you, like an orientation? Is it a practice? A philosophy? A mindset? An identity? A choice? 

Being able to describe your approach to polyamory makes it easier to connect with others, build community, and choose partners from a place of enthusiastic, informed consent. 

It's our 100th episode of Playing with Fire!

This podcast was intended to be 13 episodes to cover each chapter of Joli's first book... and here we are with 100 episodes in and feeling more excited about this shared project than we ever dreamed.

Every relationship benefits from a shared purpose (see episode 65), but so often, the shared project defaults to householding and/or kids. 

Proactively creating shared purpose beyond the banal is an option. For us, it's been a magnificent addition to our connection. Especially as our kids grow up and we face a (sort-of) empty nest during the college years- it was looking easier to turn to other relationships for creative, vulnerable fun. And then Playing with Fire was born.

This episode is highly personal and also designed to be inspirational. 

We did what we do whenever we are having a relationship retrospective: one part analysis (Ken's a scrum guy, of course), one part gratitude, and one part weird. I love adding the weird- why even bother being alive if not to be weird?

It's normal to want your relationship to feel secure.

It's normal to want to individuate.

It's normal to want to explore what life can look like beyond the constraints of default monogamy.

But how do you actually deal with your specific attachment wounds and still create a love that makes space for multiple loving connections? 

Joli & Jessica dove into how attachment theory can help us make a relationship that actually works for us, but we went beyond the surface of attachment theory. Y'all are smart- and she's done a lot of interviews already (google is your friend), so I wanted to go deeper and find out how Jessica weaves other theories into her work and how she helps people move out of relational trauma loops and into the life they desire. 

Jealousy, internal family systems/parts work, and narrative therapy... oh, and some sneak peeks of Jessica's upcoming book Polywise!

Jessica Fern is a Psychotherapist, Certified Clinical Trauma Professional, and author of the book Polysecure: Attachment, Trauma, and NonMonomgamy and The Polysecure Workbook. In her international private practice, Jessica works with individuals, couples, and people in multiple-partner relationships who no longer want to be limited by their reactive patterns, cultural conditioning, insecure attachment styles, and past traumas, helping them to embody new possibilities in life and love. 

Learn more at  www.JessicaFern.com 

Joli here- how many times have you heard one of these gems?  You're a lot.  You're intimidating.  You're an energizer bunny.  You're hyper-productive.  You must never rest.  You're just too much. 

Tell me, who are you comparing me to when you make this pronouncement? 

Ken sat down to talk out one of my core wounded parts, the girl who gets told she's intimidating in every way. It was good medicine for me, and I hope listening in offers the same to you. 

If you've been told you're too much, I hope I hear more from you. Get louder, dance more wildly, splash color everywhere... be you where I can see, please!

Does the thought of your partner being with someone else make you...hot as hell? 

You aren't alone. 

Though jealousy is often thought of as the LAST thing anyone would want in their life, that's not the only way it goes. In Joli's phenomenological research, 30% of participants reported sexual, juicy responses when they felt jealous.

Turning the standard jealousy narrative on its head is a delicious opportunity- and in this very personal episode, we're talking about how working with jealousy differently over the past two decades has led to some transformative and HOT times.

It really is possible to get off on the complex feeling of jealousy- come hear how we've been working with it to do just that.

Seeking open relationship bliss? 

Great. Us too. And all my clients. You're not alone.

Every week I hear from at least a few people who want to know if they should try to open right from the start or whether they need to solidify their couplehood first. Everyone seems to have a strong opinion, and I hear a ton of FEAR that if you get this *wrong*, you're relationship is going to be so.much.harder. This episode hits a lot of non-monogamy hot-buttons, so get ready to consider things from multiple angles!

Creating the relationship you really want begins with the ENVISIONING process. Plus, it's really easy to find yourself in relationships that don't fit right (but do feel familiar) unless you actively participate in the relationship envisioning process. 

This conversation is like being a fly on the wall of our relationship- Ken's sharing how he wound up in a marriage that was completely the opposite of what his soul truly longed for, and Joli's got some tips for how to get started in your own envisioning process.

I (Joli) love romantic friendships. Ones that have a deeply intimate quality and the capacity to have honest conversations about boundaries and relationship agreements. Ones that feel soft, warm, and connected. But romantic friendships scare some people- it makes sense because they are one way we can live  beyond the boxes of patriarchal convention. Developing romantic friendships takes intentionality and creativity... and it's totally worth it! There are two big takeaways at the end that will get you started breaking the norms and building the friendships you truly want!

This week we are sharing our most popular episode ever- this one is a not-to-miss!

Relationship agreements might sound dry but the process of co-creating relationship bliss is NOT dry in the least.  This episode is part explanation, part demonstration of how we review and negotiate the living document that is our relationship agreement. We found a hole in one of ours while recording that we need to address--No relationship escapes being a work in progress, including ours.

Relationships are where we seek security, so making changes can feel particularly scary or overwhelming.  Don't let this fear stop you from creating the custom-built relationship you really want!   This episode is all about how you can shift your experience of opening up from fearful to hopeful starting today.

"Why are you doing it like that?" 

Whether your criticism is about something as mundane as loading the dishwasher or as complex as managing new relationship energy, poorly timed, unsolicited criticism doesn't actually get us the connection we're longing for. 

Dr. Jessica Higgins joins us this week to offer clarity on what criticism is really telling us and what we can do to shift our feedback patterns. 

Want a more expansive, custom-designed life? You need to take some risks and make changes. BUT--before you go committing to permanent change, learn exactly how to use one of Joli's most-trusted tools for minimizing risk while making exciting changes in your relationships. 

Relationships get stronger and healthier when you talk about them with your partners. For that you're going to need shared language and meaning, Learning the jargon of relationship styles is so helpful! So, here's how we think about relationship labels---open relationship, kitchen table polyamory, relationship anarchy, and lots more.

Do you wish desire just magically ramped up without any effort? It certainly does sometimes, but most of the time desire flows better because we actively FUEL desire. This week we're talking about the things that block your access to desire and what to do about those blocks. 

Desire does not have to be elusive, so if you struggle here rest assured it is 100% normal to need to learn the skills of building desire in yourself and in your relationships.

Sure, it sounds fun, but is polyamory actually practical? And what if you have kids-- it's already tough to find time-- how can this work? What about STIs? Unplanned pregnancy? Or what if we find out we aren't a good fit anymore? When these big questions loom its helpful to hear from people who've been there, done, got the t-shirt.

If you're new to polyamory this interview is especially well-suited for you! 

Laura Boyle, the author of Ready for Polyamory joins us to talk about how this all really works. 

Conventional wisdom tells us marriage is all about compromise and we are not here for it. Honestly, conventional wisdom will, at best get you a conventional relationship... and if you are here you want way more than that kind of life. Let's talk about what compromise does to your individuation path, where compromise is appropriate, and how to choose an uncompromising intimacy with love and compassion.

"I want to feel less jealousy and more compersion- HELP!" There's no one in the world who can speak to this topic like Dr. Marie Thouin, so we were thrilled to have this conversation with her. Compersion is the feeling of joy for another's joy, and it's often seen as the opposite of jealousy. Every week I hear people wrestling with jealousy and trying to move toward compersion, but what is compersion beyond that short definition? What conditions help us feel compersion and what hinders compersion? Marie is bringing us answers directly from her research. If you love Joli's jealousy work- wait till you hear where the collaboration of jealousy researcher + compersion researcher takes us!

It's totally normal to be moody, triggered, and reactive but it takes a TOLL on your relationships if you don't know how to get back out of those states.

You perceive the world---and all your relationships---through your nervous system. Sensory information comes in and your brain interprets it. So it makes sense that learning how to regulate your nervous system is a key part of making your relationship feel safe and satisfying. 

This has all felt like a great idea for a long time but learning practical tools--and when exactly to use them--really changed everything. 

Do you experience jealousy as overwhelming, painful, or disruptive? How about envy? Yeah- most people agree, there's more pain than fun packed into these feelings. But, like other big emotions, jealousy and envy have are rich with gold you for your individuation journey. The trick is to begin seeing these green-eyed monsters for their archetypal content rather than as something to solve.

Jealousy and envy won't necessarily become your favorite emotional experiences, but they can absolutely become part of your personal growth process starting today. 

Joli's spent the past decade researching to bring you practical methods for working with jealousy & envy whether you are non-monogamous, monogamous, or just figuring out what the right relationship style is for you.

Do you want to grow into the most authentic version of your Self that you can be? The good news is that you get to choose that, and all you need is within reach right now. Typically, individuation is seen as a solo activity, a deep inner journey that often comes with an image of the hermit. But we've found that relational individuation is another VERY fruitful option. This week we are talking about what steps you can take to engage fully in your journey whether your life partner/s is/are interested in psychological development or not.

Do you want to explore non-monogamy? Are you curious about how conscious relationships can take you to new levels of growth in your psychological individuation? In Playing With Fire, which grew out of the Project Relationship podcast, Joli and Ken co-host weekly intimate conversations from the inside of a non-monogamous, individuation-oriented marriage. We’re sharing tools and strategies for making your relationship into one that helps you feel seen, known, and supported as you become the most YOU version of you possible.

Are your relationships messy? That's more than OK - learning more about your particular relationship mess by learning about others can save you a lot of time and pain. So we talked with Kate Loree, LMFT, a sex-positive licensed marriage and family therapist with a specialty in non-monogamous, kink, LGBTQ, and sex worker communities. She's the author of Open Deeply: A Guide to Building Conscious, Compassionate Open Relationships, and together she and Joli share their thoughts about their work and experiences with open relationships.

Visiting a pleasure-centered shop can be an inspiring and exciting experience for singles, couples, and moresomes. Beth Hankes from Earth and Salt shares how and why she decided to open her shop, and why it's so important for it to be an accessible, informative, supportive place.

Beth Hankes (she/her) is the Founder and CEO of Earth and Salt, and a sex education certificate student at the Institute for Sexuality Education and Enlightenment. She has a BA in Art History and Studio Art from Mount Holyoke College, and a Masters in Museum Studies from Harvard Extension School.

After concurrent years of identifying self-repression, questioning her sexual desires, and health issues, she was inspired to open Earth and Salt. With Earth and Salt, her goals are to normalize sex and pleasure, provide vital sex education to all, and champion other business owners and sexuality professionals, especially those from historically marginalized groups.

Tired of *trying* to find the person you want? There's a faster path and it is completely within your reach. Everyone has the capacity to deepen their intimacy with Self and when you do, you'll find that others respond. Stop trying to be someone for someone else and BE YOU. 

Joli talks with the incomparable Allana Pratt about the pains and perils of trying to date without doing your personal work. 

BONUS: this episode opens up with a conversation between Joli & Ken. We are getting super vulnerable about what's going on for us right now and it's not all pretty. If you've ever wondered what goes on behind the scenes, you don't want to miss this episode!

Today's guest:

Intimacy Expert, Allana Pratt is a global media personality and go-to authority for those who have suffered heartbreak and are ready to live unapologetically and attract an open-hearted ideal relationship. She has been chosen as an Icon of Influence, is a columnist on the GoodMenProject, and has been featured on Huffington Post, People Magazine, Forbes, CBS, ABC & FOX, and more.

This Ivy League grad is the Author of 6 books, has interviewed Whoopi Goldberg and Alanis Morissette, and Hosts the edgy Podcast “Intimate Conversations” where listeners learn how to find the relationship they deserve. A certified coach with close to 5 million viewers on YouTube, Allana was asked by Leeza Gibbons to coach her during Dancing with the Stars.

While supporting a number of nonprofits, Allana has created a new category with an inclusive Partnering App & Intimacy Training app called HeartMates where members Become the One to Find the One… which Keeps the One! She also offers HeartMates for Couples, private and group coaching plus retreats so that her clients have a thriving intimate relationship with themselves first, which naturally attracts and enhances their ideal partnerships.

Take the free B-Spot Quiz and discover what your hidden blindspot is!

Am I pure enough? Am I a good _______? Fill in the blank - what were you raised to be, how were you indoctrinated? Do you still agree with it? How do you wish you could move past it? 

Lauren Elise Barnes is a certified holistic s*x educator who spent a decade in the maternal health industry. She talks with us about creative monogamy, non-monogamy, and surviving purity culture.