The Out of the Cave Podcast

Lisa sits down with influencer, YouTuber, and life coach, Alyse Parker to talk about her expertise on the five survival patterns and how these patterns can play a role in our relationship to food, eating, and our bodies. (Part 2 of 2)

Topics Include:

Conscious communication

Conscious parenting 

Four steps to nonviolent communication

[1:00] Alyse talks about the ways in which we can get back to baseline depending on our survival pattern and how to establish a nourishing self care routine, including around found

[7:00] Alyse speaks to how we internalize our parent figure and take their voice as our own and it becomes woven into our survival pattern

[14:00] Lisa and Alyse discuss allowing other people into the healing process 

[30:00] Alyse shares her knowledge on what it means to express emotional needs and boundaries using conscious communication and what challenges show up in certain patterns

[42:30] Lisa and Alyse discuss how this work can impact child and parent relationships and how Lisa has been able to rewire and heal through relationships in adulthood

[57:00] Alyse speaks to running multiple patterns and having a default pattern and the gifts of each pattern

Lisa sits down with Tori for a real time heal to address why she has been struggling to accept her own image in the mirror since she was a child.

Topics:

Living with a parent who is critical of your body 

Alcohol’s effect on eating

Grieving the parents we deserved

Objectifying ourselves and healing body image issues

[6:00] Tori recounts her earliest memories around food, eating, and body image and living with a mom who was a chronic dieter who projected her own insecurities 

[17:00] Tori talks about her relationship with alcohol and how it affected her emotional eating, yo-yo dieting, and the praise she received for rapid weight loss and how she accidentally stumbled upon Lisa’s work

[25:00] Tori reflects on her feelings surrounding the decades of struggle around food, eating, body image, weight loss, and weight gain and her experience at the Cure for Chronic Pain retreat with Nicole Sachs and Lisa

[31:00] Tori confronts where she is now in terms of food and eating and reveals where she is struggling emotionally

[42:00] Lisa begins the coaching session and asks Tori probing questions like what it feels like to look in the mirror and about Tori’s relationship with her parents 

[1:04:00] Tori wonders if she can be a person who has a drink time to time and explores the idea with Lisa

Lisa sits down with her oldest friend and bestie, Cristina, to talk about how self-described, lifelong skeptic and rejector of all things woo-woo and granola, Cristina, had a spiritual awakening, against her will in a hotel room in Houston, Texas and why it’s all Lisa’s fault.

Topics Include:

Being a spiritual skeptic to having a spiritual awakening  

Adverse reaction to cannabis 

Experiencing severe panic attacks

The power of breath work

Healing inside safe relationships

[5:00] Cristina and Lisa share their connection surrounding their early belief system (or lack thereof) around spirituality and where they diverged into two completely different directions

[10:00] Cristina talks about experiencing anxiety and depression before having a name for what she was feeling

[25:00] Lisa and Cristina tell the story of their girls’ trip gone very wrong 

[43:00] Lisa and Cristina recount Lisa coaching Cristina through a panic attack and that event became a pivotal moment in Cristina’s life

Lisa sits down with Mourad, who, like Lisa, has sustained an over 100 pound weight loss for over a decade, to talk about his passion: the role of the mind in long term, sustainable weight loss.

Topics Include:

The Gabriel Method

Childhood trauma and weight gain

The role of acceptance in transformation

Self Inquiry

[7:00] Mourad shares how food became comfort at 5 years old, after being separated from his mother, and how people’s reaction his his eating exacerbated his struggle

[13:30] Lisa explains “The Volleyball Effect”

[15:00] Mourad reveals how he stumbled upon the Gabriel Method after yo-yo dieting and begins a meditation practice, and explains what his transformation entailed 

[24:00] Lisa and Mourad discuss how the energy they brought to their weight loss made it very different than a diet, despite some of the actions on the surface looking like dieting

[33:00] Mourad shares his thoughts on how to get to a place of acceptance and acceptance as a practice

[42:00] Mourad explains his belief that the mental aspect of maintaining his weight loss is more important than what he does on the physical level

[54:00] Lisa and Mourad talk about moving from perfectionism and over control to aiming for a state of flow

[1:03:00] Mourad responds to those that would say long term, sustainable weight loss is not possible

Lisa sits down with fellow personal trainer turned social worker, Elyse Schunkewitz, LCSW, to talk about why and how they’ve both moved from more traditional modalities of therapy to improving their own lives and the lives of their clients with an integrative, mind-body-soul approach.

Topics Include:

Western medicine vs holistic healing 

Pathologizing the human experience

Functional neuroscience

Rejection therapy

[2:00] Elyse talks about her early career in a psychiatric emergency room in a public New York City hospital and how leaving that job and her own healing and weaning off a plethora of psychotropic medications led her to a career of helping other people feel amazing from a mind-body-brain lens

[15:00] Elyse and Lisa share their experiences as clinical social workers and clients themselves, practicing in modalities they were trained in and have an awakening that these traditional approaches did not honor clients as mind-body-soul systems

[33:00] Elyse shares specifically what she learned that changed the orientation in which she sees the world and helps her clients heal

[43:00] Elyse reveals the power of not being afraid to fail and what it unlocked in her life

Lisa sits down with Laura, an Out of the Cave Podcast listener who’s life and mind-body-soul system was turned upside down after an accident. Laura details the road in which being hit by a drunk drunk driver led her out of the cave and into a life of recovery.

Topics:

Grief and loss in childhood and the impact on the family system

Dieting beginning in childhood and continuing for decades

Toxic diet and fitness culture of the 80s

Linking chronic pain and our relationship with food and body image

[6:30] Laura tells her story of how she went from being a physical therapist who believed she had a solid understanding of the body, to her whole mind-body system being turned upside down after a serious car accident involving a drunk driver, to fighting a battle to heal her chronic pain and mental health, and how it all ultimately led her to realizations about food and eating and Out of the Cave

[12:30] Laura talks about her early relationship to food, eating, and body image and growing up bigger and taller than the other kids and the impact of her losing her father at 8 years old

[27:00] Laura talks about getting on the “anti-diet bandwagon” after dieting on and off for decades and where both she and Lisa believes it’s lacking

[32:00] Laura reflects on pregnancy and motherhood and its effect on her relationship with food and eating and when her daughter got older Laura is ready to focus on herself and then is in a horrible car accident

[40:00] Laura finds Curable and finds initial success and explains why and how she dove so much deeper into “the work” and how she came to link her chronic pain to her relationship with food, eating, and body image

[1:00:00] Laura talks about living in the gray, the ongoing process of healing, and embodying acceptance

Lisa sits down with hypnotherapist, Lynnsey Robinson, who helps people rewire their mind to overcome limiting beliefs and believe what they want to believe.

Topics Include:

Limiting Beliefs

Expansive vs contracting fear

Shaping the metaphysical mind

Hypnotherapy

Self Love

[8:30] Lynnsey shares the wild story that led to her path of hypnotherapy

[26:30] Lynnsey reflects on her spiritual background starting in childhood, not connecting with her religious upbringing

[35:30] Lynnsey explains how the parts of the metaphysical mind, how it develops and is conditioned, and how we process information and accessing the subconscious mind through hypnotherapy to achieve your goals

[51:30] Lynssey gives her opinion, ideas, and tips for self hypnosis 

[1:11:00] Lynssey addresses myths surrounding hypnosis 

Lisa sits down with group alum Phoebe, who unlike most OOTC-ers never identified as an emotional eater nor restrictive dieter, but came to the work battling intense anxiety and body image issues.

Topics Include:

Anxiety beginning in childhood

Early body image messages

Self Injury

Living a life in recovery

[8:30] Phoebe recalls her childhood anxiety and having body image challenges very early, hitting puberty early, and being very tall

[20:30] Phoebe delves further into what she went through mentally and physically during puberty and being a young athlete and her history of self injury

[40:00] Phoebe recounts what she went through as a high school freshman in a relationship with a senior and the impact that had on subsequent relationships

[45:00] Phoebe talks about being a college athlete with crippling social anxiety who didn’t drink because her boyfriend didn’t want her to

[52:00] Phoebe pursues a career in physical therapy and finds Lisa through Nicole Sachs and shares some of her most valuable takeaways

Lisa answers listener questions.

Topics Include:

The intersection of diet and chronic pain

Dealing with weight gain due to recovery

Childhood obesity and the ACE study

[4:00] Q1: Listener begins by providing background about being bigger than the other women in her family and that feeling unacceptable growing up. She goes on to describe chronic pain symptoms that were quelled by an extremely restrictive diet protocol prescribed by medical providers, which led to weight loss and a sense of pride and belonging. Now she is trying to expand her diet and feel safe around a wider variety of food, while dealing with subsequent weight gain and fear around that. Listener asks Lisa for feedback and insight.

[30:00] Q2: Lisa is asked to speak to the American Association of Pediatrics guidelines that suggest medication and surgery may be appropriate for some obese children depending on age

[51:00] Lisa provides final thoughts and explains what it means to turn towards versus turning away from what is hard, painful, etc.

Lisa sits down with best-selling author, transformational facilitator, podcaster, and blogger, Kelsey Aida to talk about what it means to embody radical self-love.

Healing the emotional body

Eliminating unnecessary suffering

Facing ALL feelings

Compassionate Inquiry

Parts Work

[5:30] Kelsey describes her first spiritual awakening and dark night of the soul and how that launched her into her purpose

[10:40] Kelsey describes her depressive episode and shares how she healed her emotional body

[20:00] The healing power of being brave enough to feel your own emotions and outlines how to live your best life

[32:00] Kelsey talks about how she helps her clients release resistance and not be ruled by fear and the importance of embodying authenticity

[50:00] Being resistant to the “good stuff” and befriending your anxiety and embracing all your parts

Lisa sits down with group coaching alum, Jamie, to talk about her experience growing up as a kid who was bigger than the others and who went on to numb, run, disassociate, and self-soothe with food, alcohol, and sex, and what life is like now, out of the cave.

Topics:

[3:10] Jamie looks back on her early memories around food and body image and being bigger than the other kids and the majors changes in her young life that led her to eat to feel better

[16:00] Jamie reflects on puberty and the impact identifying herself as “fat” perpetuated her use of food and then the impact having her first boyfriend had on her relationship with food

[27:00] Jamie goes to college and diets and exercises and gets lots of male attention and her complicated relationship with alcohol begins and impacts her academic experience

[32:00] Jamie faces unspeakable tragedy and continues to yo-yo diet through her 20s and her struggles with both alcohol and food collide

[48:00] Jamie's weight continues to climb as she tries counteract her emotional eating with diets and working out in hopes of belonging, and then identifies herself as an emotional eater and looks at her relationship with alcohol during the height of Covid

[58:00] Jamie shares the cosmic shifts she has experienced since going through group coaching

Lisa sits down with group coaching alum Theresa for a live coaching session about maintaining a life of recovery.

Topics:

[5:00] Theresa shares that she has stopped behaviors that caused her seek out help through the group coaching program, and reveals her current pain point

[16:00] Theresa explains her inner dialogue when she catches a herself having thought about “needing” to change her body

[30:00] Lisa and Theresa talk about using personification of thoughts as a coping skill

[35:00] Theresa remembers a story where she called on the spiritual part of herself that is not caught up in the thoughts, beliefs, stories and even the functions of the human body

[45:00] Lisa shares her path and story about early eating disorder recovery

[55:00] Theresa talks about her thoughts and behaviors after receiving chocolate covered strawberries as a gift

Out of the Cave Offerings:

Lisa sits down with group coaching alum, Theresa, as she bravely shares her life story and the ways in which eating and dieting are interwoven in the highest and lowest points.

Topics Include:

[5:00] Theresa reflects on her earliest memories around food, eating, and body image and when things went from “normal” to more difficult and describes the rules that were imposed on what was and wasn’t allowed when it came to food

[13:00] Theresa remembers family members worrying that she was getting fat during early puberty and put on her first diet

[18:30] Theresa reflects on getting her first job and having money for the first time and how that impacted her relationship with food and experiences a dichotomy of thrill and intense guilt and what it meant to be in high school believing she was fat

[29:30] Theresa opens up about her relationship with her mom and how Theresa’s brother’s death affected the family dynamic and shares how she went on a wildly expensive and restrictive diet as a gift to herself post high school graduation

[35:00] Theresa shares the roll food and body image played in her first romantic relationship and subsequent break up

[42:00] Theresa gets pregnant by her cheating boyfriend and has her first daughter at 23 years old, falls in love with her new role, and gains a lot of weight, and does a diet and finds her baby a dad, moves across the country to run from her daughter’s biological father, and again, gains a lot weight

[49:00] Theresa has two more children, continues to struggle with her weight, finds a church and joins OA and finds community, was very poor and manages to always put on the food table

Lisa sits down, again, with Jenny Campbell, this time to access her knowledge as an enneagram teacher to dive into the types, and Lisa has a live session with Jenny!

[1:50] Jenny defines the enneagram and talks about her introduction to the enneagram when she reunited with her birth mother, and how she began training with author’s of enneagram books

[15:00] Jenny goes through the nine types and explains their real quality and false quality

[37:00] Jenny shares what she recommends do’s and don’ts for people who want to learn more about their enneagram personality

[45:00] Lisa shares her experience with the enneagram and Jenny gives her take

Lisa sits down with Jenny, former group coaching client and enneagram teacher, to talk about recovery from dieting addiction.

Topics:

[5:00] Jenny recalls her earliest memories regarding food, eating, and body image

[19:00] Jenny talks about the bullying she incurred from around ages 10 to 15

[25:30] Jenny remembers when food, eating, body image became an “issue” for her

[28:00] Jenny gains weight her freshman year of college and shares about how she approached losing that weight that marked the beginning of her struggle with yo-yo dieting

[35:00] Jenny reflects on her dieting addiction and shares when things began to shift as she slipped from diet culture into wellness culture and then found herself experiencing chronic pain

[43:00] Jenny talks about diving into anti-diet culture and unpacks her fatphobia and goes on the “Fuck It” Diet and gains 25 pounds, and talks about her difficult and conflicting internal dialogue

[50:00] Jenny looks back on coming to Lisa hoping to work on the anguish she was experiencing around her identity and her body image and talks about where she is now

In this solo episode, Lisa answers listener questions surrounding her 150 pound weight loss.

Topics Include:

[5:00] “I heard you talk about your weight loss as trauma, and I would like you to explain that more. From the outside looking in we see the before and after body that we are secretly, or not so secretly, looking for. It really hit me different to  hear you say, ‘The way I did weight loss was trauma.’”

[27:00] “Is it actually easier to love your body after your weight loss?”

[40:00] “Events on our calendar to motivate us to meet our goals, whether it’s a wedding, a hike, anything to put in the time daily, how does that work in the brain? Happy and safe?”

Lisa interviews her personal trainer, Jess and together they discuss choosing a life of recovery from disordered eating.

Topics Include:

[5:10] Jess talks about early childhood in early 90s as it relates to food, eating, exercise, body image, fatphobia, and the diet culture of the time

[13:00] Jess remembers the effect of coming of age and puberty as someone who was constantly praised for being thin and petite

[17:00] Jess discusses the effect of going vegan, saying it was for the earth, but really wanting to have some control, and she consequently loses weight and marks this as the beginning of her struggle with food

[21:00] Jess is hospitalized and seeks medical treatment as a direct consequence of extreme restriction after a break up in college where her GI issues were address

[24:00] Jess has a coach who gets her weight lifting and opens a whole new world

[35:00] Jess talks about how she just “kept going” without really addressing her eating issues in a meaningful way and begins her personal training career

[45:00] Lisa and Jess discuss living in recovery

Lisa sits down with coach, Melissa K Byers to talk about what it looks like to lead while healing, as Melissa gets honest and vulnerable about her history with binging disordered eating and how she copes to this day.

Topics:

[5:00] Melissa explains what is it means to “clean up the bloodline,” and healing generational trauma

[7:00] Melissa talks about what pulled her toward Lisa’s work and Out of the Cave and what it means to lead while still having her own work to do

[14:00] Melissa recalls how and when food and eating became disordered and her experience with Bulimia, and how she copes when temptations to fall back to those behaviors creep up in her life today

[28:00] Melissa thinks back to the first time she binged and purged and how it became a 3 year addiction and the lack of support she received when she was “found out”

[36:00] Melissa reflects on the “why,” of how for a time, binging and purging was a solution that made sense to her

[44:00] Melissa talks about her 2023 intention being to invest in therapy and being numb during the three years she was in an active eating disorder and processes what it was like for her to be “found out”

[54:00] Melissa shares how getting educated as a social worker gave her the space and support to start healing

Lisa sits down with group coaching alum, and fan favorite podcast guest, Kate to discuss the role of exercise from a place of love and deep self respect, and what movement, exercise, and fitness can teach us about the human experience.

Topics:

[7:25] Kate describes a chaotic morning where life got life-y and how she was reminded she has to show up for herself every single day

[9:15] Kate reflects on her earliest relationship with exercise and follows the thread from childhood to adulthood

[15:00] Kate tells the story of coming out the cave and into a HIIT group fitness class and what messy action looked like for her as she exercised from a place of love and respect for her body

[25:00] Kate shares the roll working out plays in her life today and the community she’s built because of exercise

[30:00] Lisa talks about tracking your workout progress in a way that honors the way our bodies get faster and stronger and is not used as a tool to judge ourselves from a place of fear

[40:00] Lisa and Kate talk about the release and the therapeutic experience that high intensity exercise provides and also how it is a tool that teaches us to tolerate discomfort

[55:00] Kate reflects on how 14 week group coaching impacted her relationship to exercise and ultimately her relationship to self

[1:00:00] Kate and Lisa discuss being mindful about choosing to zone out

Group coaching graduate, D, sits down with Lisa to talk about what has been like to navigate life as a highly sensitive person in a pointy world, what it means to figure out who you really are apart from your titles and roles, and coming to a place where it feels safe to live a true and authentic life.

Topics:

[2:20] D talks about learning to identify herself from the inside out by doing the work in group coaching and discusses why she chose not to identify herself as a licensed marriage and family therapist while she was a member

[11:00] D recalls the early messages she received about being a deep, sensitive, intuitive, empathic being raised in Los Angeles in the 70s and 80s and how she coped as a little girl

[15:00] D reflects the culture of food in her Jewish home how was a love language for her Bubby, while her mom was what they called a “health nut”

[19:00] D remembers the demand for girls to be pretty (and therefore skinny) and her earliest memories of hearing women speak ill of each other’s bodies

[24:00] D discloses when food, eating, and body image really started coming to her consciousness and how her middle school classmates had a rating system for girls’ bodies and faces, and how she abandoned so much of herself to fit in and belong

[32:00] D talks about how pregnancy and motherhood brought food and eating issues to the forefront and what that looked like for her

[43:00] D reflects on the feelings surrounding her second go at weight loss when her second child was 10 years old and how she ultimately came to recovery

[56:00] D shares about her experience in 14 Week Group Coaching, coming in as a student and treating it as an intensive outpatient program

[1:10:00] D talks about life since completing the program and what has really stuck with her and shares this quote from Rupi Kaur, “it was when I stopped searching for home within others and lifted the foundations of home within myself I found there were no roots more intimate than those between a mind and body that have decided to be whole.”

Lisa sits down with former personal training client, Personal Development Coach, Payal Mehta, and together they explore what it means to live an authentic life out of the cave, despite strong handed, cultural narratives about what, who, and how we should be.

Topics Include:

[4:30] Payal recalls her early relationship to food, eating, and her body and when she began to feel self-conscious and the emphasis that was put on being thin in her Indian culture, on top of American diet culture

[9:20] Payal explores the idea of “feeling fat” and looks back on her engaging diet culture when she really didn’t have weight to lose because that’s what she was “suppose” to do

[20:00] Lisa and Payal discuss the physical manifestation of emotions and riding the wave when big emotions come to visit

[30:30] Payal explains how coming out of the cave has affected her parenting

[40:00] Payal tells the story of how she came to hire Lisa and her own perception of body size, exercise, and weight loss then and now

[50:00] Lisa defines health and safety and Payal explains what choosing authenticity over attachment looks like in her life

In the most vulnerable episode yet, Lisa opens up about how she in not different than any person her to turns to her for guidance and leadership, gets specific about how and where in life she is experiencing difficulty and pain, and gives a candid account of losing her baby sister, Rebecca.

[6:00] Lisa shares her experience of high functioning anxiety and how she is beginning to identify with high functioning depression

[11:00] Lisa opens up about an experience she had recently with using magic mushrooms as a tool for healing, guided by Alison Midollo and links it back to a time where she did cellular therapy where feelings about the death of her baby sister surfaced

[19:00] Lisa goes back to being five years old and details the experience the short life and tragic death of her 5 month old sister, Rebecca and how her death taught her to use denial as a coping mechanism

[34:00] Lisa talks about how she learned to cope when she was five years old is showing up tangibly today and where she is at mentally and emotionally while confronting this part of herself

[39:00] Lisa shares a few “day in the life” stories and how she deals with stressors and triggers while choosing a recovery

Lisa sits down with her long time client, back from her personal training days, Michelle, about awakening to the human experience. Together they take a walk down memory lane reflecting on the earliest teachings of Out of the Cave, before the actual business even existed!

Topics:

[4:15] Michelle recalls not really being aware of her early relationship to food, eating, and her body until working with Lisa and coming “out of the cave” and is now able to look at what life was like as a child of the 70s

[8:00] Michelle speaks of the trauma being a tomboy and going through puberty and being treated differently by the boys who were once her best friends

[16:00] Michelle talks about worrying about how she looked in her late teens, early adulthood in context of the 70s and 80s, in the heyday of the supermodel and teen magazines and really not being conscious of the effect of those times til much later

[21:00] Michelle remembers thinking about her body as a problem, and dieting for the first time and doing that for years until meeting Lisa in the gym

[27:30] Michelle looks back and remember meeting Lisa in the gym and their early work together

[38:00] Michelle talks about having anxiety and how it manifested physically for her

[42:00] Michelle shares a powerful experience she had being guided through a meditation by Lisa

[51:00] Michelle tells us how her life looks different now that she has spent years living out of the cave

[1:04:00] Why Michelle left her job

The Out of the Cave Podcast turns one! Listen in to the recording of our first very first Live Q&A.

Topics Include:

[1:00] Q1 Do you ever have days where you say, “I don’t want to feel today?” and what do you do when you’re tired of feeling?

[7:30] Q2 A meal ends, but scrolling social media is forever and that’s my struggle. Any advice?

[16:00] Q3 How do you respond to the statement, “All weight loss is fatphobic?” How does your message align or not align with something like the body positivity movement or fat liberation?

[35:00] Q4 I have a presence on social media and am pursuing intentional weight loss. Other people’s opinions about that and my body feel like a sabertooth tiger. What are your thoughts?

[43:00] Q5 I struggle with boundaries and self judgment and I take on the critical opinions of others and have a hard time separating them from my own thoughts and it gets really confusing. Can you speak to that?

[59:00] A discussion about repetition and reinforcement to rewire our brains and keep our beliefs strong

[1:00:00] Veteran group member talks about the changes in her life after marinating in this work for about a year

Today’s episode is the first of its kind on the OOTC pod! Abby is a group coaching alumni who came in to do a one on one session to go deeper into some areas where she was still struggling. When we discovered how poignant the questions and topics she was bringing up were, we decided to hit record and let it happen so that you could experience this uncut conversation in real time with us.

Topics include:

[1:03] Diet police and anti-diet police. Not everything you do is a disorder. Allowing yourself to not eat foods that are triggers for you without turning it into a restrictive mindset. Understanding that everyone has a different experience and everyone is going to have different triggers and different roads to recovery.

[11:45] Learning to trust your body and your brain to make decisions for yourself, respecting and upholding our inner knowing. Finding safety around food in different ways. Feeling addicted versus forming healthy relationships around people, activities, and foods - avoiding extremes.

[21:07] Allowing yourself to find what works for you, rather than succumbing to the lies of both diet and anti-diet culture that ‘just doing it this way will work!’ Being the expert on your own body.

[29:01] Fears around losing weight, people’s reactions to you losing weight and the attention that often comes with that. Emotion and action, letting your brain learn unSAFE versus unCOMFORTABLE.

[38:19] Themes of recent conversations around body changes in puberty and the unpleasant attention that invited from friends, family, and strangers. The assumption that everyone is trying to lose weight. The importance of finding community, being understood, and being seen.

Become a Member of the Out of the Cave Online Community - Includes Two Live Coaching Calls Monthly

Lisa sits with long-time, one-on-one, client Out of the Cave client, Elisa. They dive deep into a conversation surrounding how the work inside Out of the Cave heals us beyond our relationship with food, eating and body image.

Topics:

[2:30] Elisa talks about her lack of memories around her early relationship with food, eating, and her body and then watching her single mom struggle with her own body image and diet

[6:30] Elisa remembers how puberty brought the first self-conscious thoughts about her own body and comparing her body to her peers’

[10:30] Elisa recalls the events that made her realize what she does affects her body, before she never really gave much thought to food and exercise, and how her relationship with exercise began in an attempts to be as thin as possible for her wedding

[16:30] Elisa talks about being pregnant with twins and then becoming pregnant again 10 months later and that being when she began dieting and how she struggled around food and exercise for about 7 years

[25:00] Elisa steadily gains weight as she struggle to “get back on the wagon,” simultaneously, she struggles to be the mom she wants to be, finds it difficult to connect her marriage, and begins questioning if this is what she really wanted for her life, and then finds Out of the Cave through Nicole Sachs and her husband’s journey with chronic pain

[38:00] Elisa explains how food, body image, and the belief “in this work” brought her to Lisa and talks about their early one-on-one relationship

[45:00] Elisa talks about what living life “Out of the Cave” has looked like for her now that she has been doing the work and has been a client for years now and how parenting has changed so much for her

[50:00] Elisa shares how she is ready for intentional weight loss and the energy shift compared to past weight loss efforts, being in a place of self-love over fear

Lisa sits down and talks to intuitive habit coach, Heather Javier, about advocating for yourself, managing your time, and stacking the cards in your favor to create habits that support how you want to feel and the person you want to be.

Topics Include

[3:00] Heather introduces herself and explains how struggles in early motherhood led her to where she is today

[10:00] Lisa and Heather dive deeper into the idea of truly holding space

[20:00] Heather shares the framework she uses to work with her coaching clients

[23:00] Prioritizing boundaries to create alignment

[30:00] Creating habits around the question, “How do you want to feel?”

[40:00] Heather talks about the biggest obstacles to creating habits and walks the listeners through the client experience

[54:00] Heather explains the concept intentionally creating obstacles and creating check points

Lisa continues answering listener questions surrounding the intentional weight loss series and speaks about the Minnesota Starvation Study.

Topics Include:

[2:30] Question 1 When pursuing intentional weight loss, what are some things to watch out for to make sure the process is staying in an aligned, holistically healthy place?

[20:00] Question 2 Do I have to set an end goal?

[36:00] Question 3 What would you (Lisa) do if you had 150 pounds to lose?

Lisa answers listener questions in response to the three part Intentional Weight Loss series.

Topics:

Lisa deepens the conversation on intentional weight loss and talks about the reality about what must be done on the physical level and how to make the process safe on a mental, emotional, spiritual level.

Topics Include:

[2:00] Lisa explains, Nicole Sach’s concept of “Option 3,” and life being a choice between what hurts and what hurts worse as it applies to her own experience of being 300 pounds and her subsequent weight loss

[18:00] Lisa talks about the emotional charge around changing behaviors and facing objective facts in order to intentionally lose weight and the VITAL practice of showing up

[40:00] Lisa recalls her decadent lifestyle in a recent trip to Italy and how and why she felt safe around foods like pizza and pasta, etc

[45:00] Being honest of what you have to do and it what it means (and doesn’t mean) to intentionally lose weight

[54:00] Your conscious input and attachment to the idea of losing weight

[58:00] How to meet yourself where you are when beginning weight loss

Lisa continues the conversation about intentional weight loss in this solo episode.

Topics Include:

[3:00] Lisa discusses flaws she sees in a popular belief surrounding weight loss and how to move forward by releasing those beliefs

Lisa and Alé sit down to talk about what it looks like to pursue weight loss “the Out of the Cave way,” without dieting and from a place of safety and acceptance.

Topics Include:

[6:00] Alé shares the difficulties she encountered during the “fourth trimester,” and her decision to pursue intentional weight loss

[11:30] Lisa and Alé discuss the role of safety as the foundation in pursuing intentional weight loss in a way that is not a diet

[18:30] Lisa defines conscious input and creating an environment of internal safety

[29:00] What it means to accept your body

[34:00] Lisa speaks about denial as a coping mechanism in her own personal story

[50:00] Lisa and Alé discuss what intentional weight loss looks like without being on a diet

Related  Episodes/Resources:

Lisa sits down with her own former coach, Kristi, who specializes in helping female CEOs rebalance their lives. Kristi shares how her mindset around her autoimmune disease realigned her life. Lisa gets honest about an area of life she struggled to balance after taking control of her relationship with food, eating, and her body and building a successful business.

Topics Include:

[4:00] Kristi recalls how it felt to grow up in a “health conscious” home and how it impacted her relationship with food even though her parents brought food into the house for its health benefits

[7:30] Kristi remembers having a balanced relationship with food until the age of fifteen, when she was a competitive dancer, desperate to fit in and be thin

[9:00] Kristi is diagnosed with an autoimmune disease and changes her diet and loses a significant amount of weight, and begins to live in alignment with her mind, body, and the vision she had her for her life

[22:00] Kristi shares what her lifestyle is like about ten years after her diagnosis and gives advice to the listeners who may be dealing with obstacles

[32:00] Kristi explains a bit about her unusual upbringing, how she came to be a coach, and her thoughts on asking for help

[39:00] Lisa reveals the struggle that inspired her to hire Kristi for coaching

[50:00] Lisa and Kristi speak to the concept of creating internal safety

[1:10:00] Kristi leaves the listeners with an inspiring message about hope and possibility

Connect with Kristi

Lisa speaks with group coaching alum, Abby. Abby reflects on how normalized and unquestioned toxic fitness and diet culture was in the 80s and 90s, as well as the mental impact of constantly feeling like a failure when the newest plan, diet, or program didn’t end her struggles around food and eating for good. She shares how she used food emotionally and her experience swinging from diet culture to anti-diet culture, to ultimately landing in Out of the Cave’s 14 week group coaching program.

Topics Include:

[3:00] Abby recalls dieting with her mother at around 8 years old, after finding comfort in food, while her parents worked through their contentious on and off again relationship, being a plus sized child, and 80s diet culture

[11:30] Abby talks about feeling guilt and shame about food and her body and even so, didn’t believe she “had a problem,” but, in fact, she was the problem

[20:00] Abby reflects on the emotional experience of always dieting and giving so much attention to her size during all her school age years

[30:00] Abby moves to New Orleans, takes a stressful job, and indulges in the drinking and food scene, and for the first time in her life put on a significant amount of weight and begins trying to out diet her emotional eating

[36:00] Abby is diagnosed with Psuedotumor Cerebri (a pseudo brain tumor) and is prescribed weight loss

[40:00] Abby starts to become aware of emotional eating and her weight continues to yo-yo during her 20s and 30s, loses her home and job during Hurricane Katrina, and divorces her first husband

[45:00] Abby has two children and for the first time dieting wasn’t working, not even short term, and in her frustration finds the anti-diet movement and also winds up “failing” and believing something is wrong with her

[56:00] Abby finds Lisa and joins Out of the Cave group coaching and learns that unlike both diet culture and anti-diet, there is no promise to ever be “done”

[1:00:00] Abby reflects on her experience during her 14 weeks group coaching and shares how her biggest changes came after graduation, and how the work expanded so much further than food, eating, and body image

Become a Member of the Out of the Cave Online Community - Includes Two Live Coaching Calls Monthly

This week, Nate chats with Nate. Nate is an Out of the Cave group coaching alum, who is affectionately known as half of “Nelly,” as he and his wife, Kelly, went through the 14 week program together. Nate dreamed and planned very seriously to be an astronaut and fly fighter jets as a child, and recounts how that dream falling apart led to fifteen years of yo-yo dieting.

Topics include:

[2:45] Nate recalls his early memories after his parents divorce, living with a single parent as an only childhood, self-esteem issues, being in counseling as a child, spending a lot of time on his own, learning to cook from watching Emeril, and how as a child he was able to eat intuitively and food and eating wasn’t an issue, but recalls early habits would go on to affect his habits around food later– all while feeling the pressure to be the “perfect kid”

[17:00] Nate is accepted into the Air Force Academy, where he is pushed past his limits in their “break you down to build you up” model, and his life was shattered when he found he not be physically able to be a pilot, and for the first time in his life, he was unsure about his future and faces unhappiness, he slowly starts to gain weight

[20:00] Nate joins a traveling theater company, working backstage and also meets Kelly and begins to gain weight rapidly, as he distracts himself with fun and food

[30:00] Nate attempts to “fix” his weight problem by joining a gym, working with a trainer, and following a meal plan, which was the beginning of his yo-yo-ing dieting, along with Kelly, that would last 15 years

[34:00] Nate works with a doctor and drops a tremendous amount of weight, and gets a job as a commercial airline pilot, within three years he gained all the weight back and then some, and he and his wife find the anti-diet movement and gain around 30 more pounds, and they decided as a couple that there had to be something in the middle

[38:00] Kelly and Nate join group coaching together, and he recalls his early mindset and how he came to the awakening that this is a lifelong process

[45:30] Nate discovers embraces his flawed humanness, learns how to identify and cope with feelings, and explains the origins of his fear of conflict and how he’s worked through that, using the tools he developed during group coaching

[1:00:00] Nate talks about the changes and progress he’s made around food and eating, hunger and fullness, and his mind-body connection after graduating group coaching, and what he is still faces and how he plans to address those obstacles in a way that feels safe

[1:10:00] Practicing self-compassion and letting the journey take time and connecting with the inner-child

Ivette is a chef and a self-professed food lover, and this relatable episode chronicles her journey of yoyo dieting and breaking the cycle of shame around her body. From a very young age, she knew people were looking at her body and judging her body, so there was a lot of pressure in every area to lose weight and diet. As someone who went through both the private coaching and the group program, Ivette has a lot of wisdom to share about her journey with food and body image.

Topics include:

[2:10] At the age of 7, Ivette was warned away from junk food and overeating as part of her gymnastics training. Her mom went to the gym regularly and was naturally thin, imparting that focus on body image from a young age. Memories of the first time she was weighed on a scale are colored with feelings of intense shame and judgment.

[11:37] The summer before 9th grade brought visits to a dietitian and a strict diet regimen, but the reactions of her classmates upon returning back to school emphasized the idea that weight and weight loss would bring positive attention and compliments.

[21:00] High school and college brought on 20 years of yoyo dieting, during which she got married and had two children, further exacerbating her struggles with weight and body image. Things started to shift when Ivette found John Gabriel and the Gabriel Method, understanding how emotions ruled her relationship with food and eating.

[31:00] Going through the Gabriel Method before turning to Lisa for help understanding the holistic approach to wellness. Realizing that there was a lot more to work on than ‘just the weight problem.’ Allowing yourself to feel your feelings and learn that you’re not ‘too much.’

[39:31] The most valuable lessons in healing her relationship with food. Knowing that you’re okay and you are safe. The power of unlearning - unlearning the societal messages and expectations about our bodies, unlearning the shame and judgment that we experience from ourselves and others.

Jade experienced some very strong gut reactions to hearing Lisa’s podcast for the first time but was able to work through those feeling to recognize what her brain was trying to tell her about herself. In this unplanned episode, they discuss many of the main tenets of TMS work and how people react to things they aren’t ready to hear.

Topics include:

[3:50] Jade’s history with TMS through the work of Nicole Sachs and Dr. Sarno. Listening to something that makes you really uncomfortable and picking apart that reaction to uncover whether it’s a gut reaction to hearing something that’s so true for yourself.

[13:05] Triggers around the term “weight loss” and the range of perceptions and reactions that can occur when we hear that. The many ways we ignore our bodies and our inner knowing in both diet culture and anti-diet culture.

[22:48] Familiar means safe when it comes to our emotions, and that’s how we get stuck in cycles of fear or anger or shame. “Food is a drug” versus “food can be used like a drug.” The way a minor shift in vocabulary or phrasing can unlock a bigger mental shift.

[33:38] The TMS model of fear versus love and having the power over how we respond to our experiences. Allowing our thoughts and feelings to exist without judgment.

In this episode, we welcome back the amazing Nicole Sachs to dive deeper into the connections of the mind-body-soul system. A powerhouse in the world of TMS (Tension Myositis Syndrome), Nicole has been teaching and leading retreats for years after being mentored by Dr. Sarno himself, who coined the diagnosis after working with many patients suffering from psychosomatic conditions that caused physical symptoms. In addition to her amazing work on her own retreats, Nicole will also be one of our fantastic guest teachers at the upcoming Out of the Cave and Into Your Power retreat in San Diego this September. Find info on how to get your ticket below!

Topics include:

[6:50] The relationship between disordered eating and chronic pain. How our struggles with food and body image relate to chronic pain, TMS, and the mind-body-soul system.

[15:26] The importance of pausing. Becoming more present and conscious in your daily life, moving from desire for change into taking action.

[23:37] An epidemic of fear, not an epidemic of pain. How our body uses pain to distract from the emotions that seem unsafe to feel. How to break that cycle and find freedom.

[34:41] Allowing ourselves to just look at and accept the way our brain reacts to the situations that scare us without letting it control our decisions. Nicole explores her personal experience in the journey to freedom from the struggle with food and body.

[47:51] Trying to manipulate our physical body in order to see a change in our emotional or mental journey, fixating on smallness or flexibility or strength in our physical body in trying to achieve those goals for our psyche.

As a child of divorce with an alcoholic father and an abusive mother, Amanda used food from an early age to find the comfort that her home life lacked. Chronic back pain eventually became intense enough that she was taking multiple days off in a row from work and led her to discover John Sarno and Nicole Sachs in the world of TMS study and recovery.

Topics include:

[2:39] The first decade or so of Amanda’s life. Realizing as an adult that your childhood wasn’t as “normal” as you thought it was and that you can now see how food became a source of safety and comfort for you.

[9:24] Becoming aware of her body in high school, growing curves, marriage and pregnancy, feeling like she wasn’t good enough as she gained weight over time. Digestive issues led her to attempt various elimination diets to identify the source.

[19:18] Back pain was forcing her to take weeks off from work but her insurance denied a claim for surgery. She discovered Dr. Sarno’s work on TMS and the work of Nicole Sachs and began the long journey of healing herself.

[31:52] Once the back pain was gone, Amanda was ready to work on the accompanying food issues and turned to Lisa. Working one on one as well as in the group, the differences between the two and the biggest lessons she took away from them.

[38:22] Examining your reasons for doing something, identifying predators and fear in your life. Honoring your journey, allowing yourself to be uncomfortable.

[51:33] Expressing yourself through various media, feeling things that are uncomfortable and learning how the brain tries to protect you from that. The magic of community and connection on the healing journey.

Early ulcers as a child led to a lifelong need to control what Hannah ate. Together with Lisa, she takes us through her journey from developing an eating disorder to relapse, pregnancy, exercise addiction, and a devastating back injury. Chronic pain and the work of Nicole Sachs led her to realize she was still using food to replace her feelings and she began the intense work of finding freedom.

Topics include:

[2:30] A childhood illness and growing up with a sister who modeled were contributors to an early awareness of food and her body. The way we react to our parents/caregivers and their involvement in our upbringing. Embracing and accessing her inner child.

[16:18] Feeling lucky to be thin but knowing that puberty was just around the corner. Eighth grade formal and trying to fit into a dress was the beginning of a 10 year eating disorder. Not getting the reaction she wanted when she finally told her mom.

At long last, a highly requested topic is discussed on the Out of the Cave pod! This week Lisa talks about intuitive eating and compares the principles set forth in the book of the same title by Evelyn Tribole and Elyse Resch with the idea of truly intuitive, instinctual eating and understanding of yourself as a spiritual being in a physical body.

Topics include:

[4:06] Belief systems in relation to food and our body. The two different kinds of “intuitive eating” and what it can really mean for you, your body, and your relationship with food. Who it works for and who it doesn’t (and why you are one or the other).

[14:31] The challenge of intuitive eating when it’s not just about getting out of diet culture, it’s about the emotional reliance on and addiction to food. The relationship between overeating and restricting (whether mentally or physically).

[28:29] Feelings and trauma are held inside our body. The importance of creating safety in order to achieve embodiment. Understanding the entanglement of the emotional and the physical.

[34:41] All foods have equal moral value. There is still varying nutritional and neurobiological value, but it’s not about shame vs pride, good vs bad, safety vs danger.

[46:12] Forming realistic expectations around the presence food will have in our life. Digging deeper into the goal that so many people start with that is not wanting to think about food ever.

[54:42] The way intuitive eating needs to be mindful of all the different aspects of our selves. The difference between trusting yourself and knowing yourself.

[1:02:18] Authenticity vs attachment, our true self in all its complicated and emotional glory. Embracing the deeper levels of understanding ourselves. Going deeper than just eating when you’re hungry and stopping when you’re full.

[1:11:36] Outsourcing to your higher self. Letting all the parts of yourself say their piece and then making the decision that aligns with the kind of person you want to be.

Sherene has been a part of the group coaching program, as well as the alumni aftercare group. Today she shares with us her experience with multiple childhood moves, yo-yo dieting, body dysmorphia, and taking back the power to make decisions in her life.

Topics include:

[4:25] Sherene’s earliest memories about her body, experiencing a growing awareness of her body and shape. Learning how to be a human being and what society’s acceptable standards are. Feeling out of place as a tween following a big move to a rural public school.

[17:14] Becoming more aware of food as a pre-teen and teen. The way other people factor into our relationship with our body. Self-medicating by using food as a numbing agent.

[24:43] Expressing herself through artistic and creative outlets as a teenager but still feeling out of place. Falling in and out of various diets and health fads while watching her mom go through Weight Watchers. The impact body dysmorphia and perception has on what we experience as reality.

[33:45] Canceling plans and making choices based on how she felt about her body. The way that our brains tell us we can’t do something and takes away our power to make a choice based on what feels safe or unsafe. The difference between uncomfortable and unsafe and the ongoing daily practice of conscious awareness.

[41:53] Making the decision in her 40s to be more aware of how she feels and embrace the holistic mind-body-soul system. Asking ourselves how we really want our lives to be and beginning to move toward making that a reality.

[49:02] Looking for a spiritual solution, an initial interest in the Gabriel Method, and finding Lisa. Realizing that a diet wasn’t what she needed, it was a full holistic overhaul. Finding safety in the OOTC community, growing on every group call, and allowing herself to be more open.

[1:04:09] Sherene’s biggest takeaways from being in group. Being aware and allowing, letting go of our resistance to reality.

Ilona found Lisa through the Omega Institute and was so inspired by her journey that she joined the Out of the Cave team after going through group coaching! Today she shares her experience of growing up feeling completely disconnected and dissociated from her body as a result of trauma. Ilona and Lisa discuss when weight loss feels unsafe, the impact of trauma in our relationships with food and our bodies, and allowing yourself to speak your truth.

Topics include:

[5:40] Food as comfort from a very young age. Going with her mom to Weight Watchers around 7 or 8, personal perceptions of weight versus looking back at pictures with a more realistic mindset. Growing into a hyperawareness of body image during the normal changes that come with puberty and adolescence. “Fat is safe” as a response to trauma.

[13:29] “This is my body and we’re not friends.” Weight loss felt unsafe when it did occur, such as experiencing unwanted attention from a male coworker. Living in your head instead of living in your body - that sense of disconnect and dissociation from your physical self.

[22:40] The impact of trauma on our relationships with our selves and our bodies. Dissociating as a form of self protection.

[27:46] Discovering John Gabriel and the Gabriel Method, eventually leading her to connect with Lisa. Coming home fired up and ready to make the changes and the risk of immediate burnout from making too many changes at once.

[38:22] Joining group coaching, finding connection and support through shared trauma in food. The nerves and anxiety of wanting to share but holding back, concerned about how your authentic self and truth might be received by others. Moving into a space where she could allow herself to dress her body in bright colors and styles she wouldn’t have worn before.

[48:12] Embodiment and connection with others in our journey toward safety. Accepting your current body the way it is. The exhaustion of experiencing emotions and allowing yourself to seek refuge in friendship.

[57:51] Validating your own frustration about a lot of the unhelpful advice about dieting and losing weight from people who don’t understand that it’s not about food. Understanding that it’s about emotional progress, not about the number on the scale or the measurements of your body.

Jen’s journey began by listening to this very podcast! After going through the group program and aftercare (the alumni group), she’s here on the pod that started it all for her. Jen is a scientist in the field of cancer research, a wife and mom, and she struggled for years with losing and gaining weight until she finally discovered Out of the Cave through a friend. Together, Jen and Lisa discuss the relationship between body, identity, and culture, the journey of allowing and discovering, and how all your relationships change as you do this work.

Topics include:

[6:45] The early years of Jen’s childhood. Grocery shopping with her mom was a bonding activity and she loved cooking, but she and her brother were left on their own while both parents worked which often left them feeling lonely. The difference between ‘innocent’ and ‘harmless.’

[13:19] Struggling with her Filipina identity growing up in America, not looking like a ‘typical’ Filipina. Minimizing herself to avoid attracting the attention of bullies. The relationship between body, identity, and culture. Growing up with judgmental parents who focus on flaws.

[18:24] Age 8-18, food brought her happiness and became a reliable companion. Feeling the pressure to look a certain way to be accepted by her peers.

[23:49] After reaching her highest weight in college in response to the confusion and discomfort of her parents’ separation, Jen spent 16 years on Weight Watchers to try and get her weight under control. Realizing that she was gaining confidence from her boyfriends, from their compliments and their attention.

[33:18] Examining the belief that we exist now as a ‘before’ picture and that once we become the ‘after’ picture, we can stay there. But as human beings, we are in our bodies every day until we die - it doesn’t end or stop, change is a constant in our lives.

[35:44] Discovering the Out of the Cave podcast and connecting to the brain science that filled in the missing pieces from her history with Weight Watchers and therapy. Building an understanding of what actually caring for your whole self looks like, not just your physical self.

[43:07] Lisa’s recollection of Jen’s first emails. Jen’s experiences upon gaining new tools from the podcast and group coaching. The way her relationship with her husband and her kids has changed just from the way she talks to them.

[50:10] The shift in awareness that came about from learning the reason WHY we think, say, and do certain things. Challenging limiting beliefs, recognizing your humanity, meeting your own needs.

[1:02:23] Desiring and manifesting a deeper level of relationships. What it means to be out of the cave as a spiritual being having a physical experience. Making the decision to end the cycle.

[1:08:09] Allowing yourself to be open and truthful and authentic. Learning to put yourself first. Understanding the way everything that came before impacts your present day.

This week we have former client Monica joining us on the pod! She recently completed the 14 week group coaching program and is here today to share more about internalizing the voices of others and how to heal from that. She and Lisa discuss the importance of having a supportive community while doing this work, as well as building an awareness of when you are perpetuating abuse against yourself.

Topics include:

[2:40] Food and its role in early childhood trauma. The role external figures play in creating our inner voice around food when we aren’t old enough to have authority and autonomy. They’re not our thoughts to begin with but we internalize them and believe that they’re our own.

[11:29] Monica’s decades long journey from experiencing an industrial accident that led her to the work of Nicole Sachs and then to Lisa. How awareness around food and emotions is built gradually, Monica’s fears but internal desperate desire to do something different upon beginning the group coaching program.

[19:12] Changing your reality only comes through action - actively making different choices than you have in the past. Unfamiliarity prompts fear in the brain, but only by moving through that fear can we make the change we want. Fear of sharing and being vulnerable in group was an initial concern but became one of the biggest benefits for Monica.

[27:10] Authenticity over attachment, learning to express your truth rather than live your life according to your perception of what other people want or think. The importance of a healing community to help you practice this. The shift that comes when you become aware of your limiting beliefs.

[39:00] Since going through the group program, one of Monica’s biggest life shifts has been living in eating regularly, after learning about atypical anorexia. Prioritizing overall wellness rather than focusing only on how much or how little you eat.

[50:09] Building an awareness of when you are perpetuating abuse against yourself. Taking back the power to set the course for our own lives.

THANK YOU to every single person who took the time to listen to last week’s pod. We received more feedback than ever before, and your texts, emails, comments, and DMs made a huge impression. Sometimes the most important thing is just knowing that you’re not alone, and that your struggle is echoed by so many others around the world. Thank you so much for all your support and kindness, and I hope that you also feel all of the love that our community is putting out into the world. ❤️

Today Lisa continues the conversation about relapse and recovery and shares the moments in her life that taught her the greatest lessons.

Topics include:

[6:34] Turning 25 the month after Lisa’s dad passed and how she learned to survive without him. How one moment showed her that she could survive feeling so much emotion that she thought she would die.

[17:00] Working with similar deep emotion and trauma with another coach. The way her body tried to distract her from the feelings by being physically cold, and how accepting that physical sensation opened up the emotional sensations.

[23:30] How do we not get distracted by body image or weight gain or food when the emotional issue is the true source? Recognizing what your body or mind needs in order to express and release the emotions you’re holding onto.

[31:05] Getting to the root of our conditioning - feeling happy or feeling comfortable allllll the time is not a realistic expectation for ourselves and it’s not what life is like. Getting into our bodies and into stillness to understand what those feelings are trying to tell us.

[41:00] Even as a child, Lisa didn’t feel like an emotional eater - eating in response to feeling emotions. Her emotional eating was preemptive, helping her ignore that the feelings were happening at all. This can be food, work, exercise, anything that we can focus on that isn’t our emotions.

[45:23] The “did do” vs “didn’t do” list. The temptation to return to old habits and disordered eating.

After a recent upheaval in her life, Lisa experienced a relapse in her relationship with food, dealing with emotions by eating and feeling like she needed food to survive. Despite the intense shame and fear, she was able to use years of doing the work to help herself out of it, but it wasn’t easy. Alé Cardinalle returns to the podcast to interview Lisa about these recent changes in her life, how to deal with intense emotions and fear, and what relapse actually means. Together they connect the lessons from several past episodes to create a fuller picture of what living with disordered eating and struggles with food actually means.

Topics include:

[4:50] Life changes and upheaval contributing to a relapse of old fears and ways of thinking, using food as an emotional survival tool.

[13:30] Experiencing fear of ‘will it be like this forever’ alongside the desire to give yourself grace and understand that some days are more difficult than others. Allowing yourself to feel the fear but not believe what it’s telling you.

[21:56] Not making meaning out of the thoughts and feelings you experience. What to do when feeling shame even after years of doing the work, because that’s what our brains think we’re supposed to do.

[34:26] Reminding ourselves that the end goal is not to be a certain way all the time, because that’s just not realistic. When emotion interferes with intuitive eating, self compassion vs. fear.

[44:24] When you’re not eating food to taste it, you’re eating as a way of escaping your experience. So how do you stop and realign? How spiritual fitness fits into recovery and resilience during recovery.

[59:37] Fear vs. truth, feeling scared that the cycle would begin again and it would last the rest of her life this time, but simultaneously knowing that it wouldn’t be easy forever. What if this IS the most afraid you’ve ever been?

[1:07:24] The beginning of coming out of the relapse, talking to Caroline Lee Dewey during a period of regression when Lisa’s own inner child was throwing a full blown tantrum. Letting yourself acknowledge that you need human connection when you don’t feel like it and you don’t want to.

[1:20:14] Human beings constantly experience stress and emotions, things which constantly influence our interactions with food. Investigating and unpacking the truth of ‘intuitive’ eating.

[1:29:57] Our bodies are our literal homes. When it changes without our permission or conscious thought, it can feel terrifying.

Caroline Lee Dewey is a transformational coach, healer, medium, all around amazing human being, AND one of our amazing guests for the Out of the Cave and Into Your Power Retreat happening in San Diego this September. We are so thrilled to welcome her onto the podcast, where she shares with Lisa and with you her story, the aspects of healing, her definition of spirituality, and so much more.

Topics include:

[6:00] Meeting each other through the Omega retreat with Nicole Sachs and passing on messages from Lisa’s recently deceased father within hours of being introduced. The influence Caroline had on Lisa’s integration of spiritual modalities in her own work.

[25:10] How the circumstances we’re born into affect our lives. Being born into the grief of losing two grandfathers in a very short time and how that led Caroline to take on responsibility for other people’s emotions. Developing intense anxiety as she went into her teens began to affect her appetite and morphed into a self-punishing mechanism.

[35:44] Losing her social network upon going to college, admittance to psychiatric programs, how everything she learned and everything that helped led her back to herself and embracing authenticity.

[40:46] Moving from absence to presence (ex. the absence of pain and fear into the presence of joy and love). Using food and physical discomfort and body issues as a way of distracting from emotional and spiritual upheaval instead of making space for those feelings.

[54:15] Integration and what it means for our lives - mind, soul, and body. The role that intuition plays in rediscovering ourselves and our spirituality.

[1:04:05] Now what? How to take these new realizations and start integrating that into our lives and our practices. The somatic component of healing and self-expression, where all the different parts of ourselves come together into a whole being.

Connect with Caroline!

One of Lisa’s early clients, Kristen is not alone in being unable to recall the early years of her life in relation to food. Under pressure to keep the peace in the family, get good grades, and participate in sports, she turned to food unknowingly as an emotional coping tool.

Topics include:

[8:20] Kristen was the peace keeper in her family, under an immense amount of pressure to bring home good grades and participate in sports. Food and reading and schoolwork became things she could immerse herself in to escape from what she was feeling and what was happening around her.

[19:30] The decade after high school saw a continuing trend of weight gain as Kristen entered college younger than her peers. She and Lisa relate to each other over the feeling of needing to be perfect in the things that are accessible for them.

[31:49] Having her child and realizing that she wasn’t setting the example she wanted to be giving her young son prompted Kristen to seek help when she connected with Lisa in her mid-40s. The feelings of shame and fear that got in her way for so long before pushing through to take that first step in reaching out about starting the work together.

[45:10] The most impactful memories from Kristen’s one on one sessions with Lisa in the early days of the program. The everyday changes that Kristen began to see through doing the work. Allowing herself to deal with her emotions in ways that will honestly feel good to her body, brain, and soul.

[58:20] Moving into the pandemic and experiencing extreme stress brought old habits back, but her awareness and acceptance of what was happening kept her present and allowed her to move through that time while maintaining self-compassion. Kristen ended up returning to join Lisa’s group coaching and learned even more from a new communal healing experience.

[1:09:45] How approaching your healing as part of a community helps us be more honest and more authentic. The never-ending journey of extending yourself compassion and love, accepting the ebb and flow that each day brings.

Kathryn has been through every stage of Lisa’s work! Since her first experience in one of Lisa’s workshops to going through the group and now as a current member of the aftercare program, she joins Lisa to discuss her journey through chronic pain, finding joy in movement, and the actual magic of truly feeling your feelings.

Topics include:

[13:28] After her mother got gastric bypass surgery at the age of 70, Kathryn recognized that she hadn’t meant to pass on a harmful mindset, but after Kathryn’s 25 year old daughter recently got gastric sleeve surgery, she feels immense guilt at passing that on to her own child. Discussing how what we say and do affects people and how the negative things we are told linger ten times longer than the positive.

[34:40] After experiencing emotional and sexual abuse as a young adult, the true change came after having her daughter. She finally stood up for herself in her abusive marriage, left her husband, and moved to a new country, but chronic migraines and plantar fasciitis drove her to the breaking point. When multiple diets didn’t work, her path led her to Lisa.

[44:27] Over the pandemic, Kathryn fostered a deep love for swimming, as the meditative rhythmic motion put her mind at ease and the physical activity helped her make decisions to fuel her body with healthy food. Releasing her need for perfectionism and competition helped her find true enjoyment in the experience.

[58:54] Moving from a space of mindless emotional eating to awareness and mindfulness. How the concept of ‘treating yourself’ can enable bad habits and take you out of actually listening to your body and what it truly needs. How to *actually* feel your feelings and what that powerful practice does for your brain and body.

[1:19:10] Conceptualizing and partnering with your inner child to heal your childhood or young adult self.

Lisa is joined by Eddy Lindenstein, host of The Mind and Fitness Podcast, to talk about control, peace, and the difference between working out because you love what your body can do versus working out because you’ll be terrified if you don’t lose weight.

Topics include:

[3:08] Eddy describes his background and work with the Mind and Fitness Podcast, which reached episode 226 as of May 19, 2022. Then Eddy and Lisa start his childhood relationship with food.

[12:43] After moving from Chico CA to Seattle WA at nine years old, Eddy experienced a massive culture shock and lifestyle change to fit in with his new schoolmates, moving into a new awareness of body and weight. Weight gain after quitting baseball due to injury led to bullying and teasing which only exacerbated the situation.

[28:43] At age 15, a family road trip contributed to further weight gain and he finally had enough. Joining a gym and going on Weight Watchers helped him lose weight and sparked a lifelong passion for exercise and fitness.

[42:45] Prepping for a competition led to an intense TMS relapse, which prompts Lisa and Eddy to discuss the scarcity mindset and love vs fear mentality in our relationships with our body. Looking back, he can acknowledge feeling a lack of power as the fundamental motivator in those moments.

[52:58] When we acknowledge our lack of control over all the things we are trying to control and force into a certain mold, an enormous weight is lifted off our shoulders and we can focus our energy on just BEING, exactly as we are (+ more on scarcity!).

[1:02:43] Integration of brain and body (aka *The Good Stuff*). No matter what happens, we are safe, and once our brains know this and truly embrace it, our lives will change. Reaching a space of love, mindfulness, and connection with food and our bodies, avoiding the pendulum swing from one extreme to another.

Lisa continues the conversation about love and fear in our relationship with food and how we can do things that scare us, get uncomfortable, and move towards fear from a deep place of love and bravery.

Topics Include:

[3:00] Lisa talks her experience around food and eating during her recent solo travel trip to Italy and what it has been like to return “back to normal,” from a place of love

[10:40] Lisa speaks to the goal of “healing your relationship” with food, and why the mindset that we will someday be “done” can activate our fear response and how we can move in a place of love

[16:30] Love, fear, and pizza, Lisa talks about her perception of pizza during her major weight loss and what it can teach us about love and fear

[28:00] Exposure therapy, running towards the fear from a place of love and teaching your brain he scary thing is safe to address dysfunctional thought patterns around food, eating, and body image

[42:00] Reparenting yourself around food and eating as an act of self love, eating when you’re hungry, not eating when you’re not hungry, and coping and being present with your emotions

[50:00] Discipline and doing things you don’t want to do from a place of love, like going to bed at a decent time and allowing yourself to be uncomfortable

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Lisa has a conversation with former client Heather to talk about different places body image issues can come from, rebuilding our belief systems to accommodate fundamental truths about ourself, and doing it out of love.

Topics include:

[1:42] Early childhood memories and building our first relationship with food - food as connection and family - the transition from food as fun, family, and community to diet culture and social pressure

[9:48] Belief systems and how conflict in this area of our lives can lead to chaos and uncertainty. Designing your own belief system and finding what resonates with you. Wrestling with your own ideology and trying to find your truth.

We have to eat food every day in order to provide our body the nourishment it needs to keep us alive. But have we thought about the emotions we encounter when we provide that nourishment?

Topics include:

[3:56] How do we define health and what is holistic health? Physical health is only one aspect of holistic health, which includes mental, emotional, social, spiritual, and environmental health in addition to our physical bodies.

Lisa and Kate talk about how bringing the unconscious to the conscious realm helped heal their physical body and their relationship to their physical bodies and what it looks like to share this work and additionally, discuss why Kate is rebranding and dropping "Clean" from Kate's Clean Life.

Topics Include:

[2:00] Lisa and Kate remember how they connected through being personal trainers who previously used fear and changing the body as motivation, to a holistic, mind-body approach, and Kate tells her story regarding her chronic pain

[22:00] Kate recalls what it was like to listen to her own intuition when doctors were recommending serious procedures like surgery to deal with her chronic pain issues

[33:00] Noticing your emotional world when we experience set-backs in our relationship with food, body image, chronic  pain, etc.

[40:30] Why Kate is rebranding “Kate’s Clean Life!” (Plus: Attempting to control the uncontrollable nature of our life and gripping to “clean eating,” “clean beauty,” “clean beauty,” etc, etc, while we have a dysregulated emotional system)

[49:00] Kate recalls finding Dr. Sarno’s work and what it means to do the “inner work” to heal the physical body by moving through repressed emotions

[1:06] Gaining health versus losing weight through focusing on love versus fear

Connect with Kate

Lisa continues the conversation from the last episode and how our internal relationships with ourselves impact our physical relationship with food and our bodies.

Topics Include:

[2:30] A review of Ellyn Satter’s, Division of Responsibility and bringing back humanity around food

[14:00] Integrating and adapting the concept of Division Responsibility with ourselves and our own feelings and behaviors around food and the simple question we should be asking

[36:00] Reparenting our inner child around the purpose of food and addressing emotional issues and feelings with emotional solutions and using food for physical hunger, fuel, and nutrition (for the most part)

[49:30] Tips and suggestions for how to practice this on a very real tangible dimension

[1:09] This week’s “homework”

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Lisa provides information on the “how-to” in moving forward in mind-body alignment, so food, eating, and body-image take up much less time and mental space in your heart and mind.

Topics Include:

[4:30] The self-objectification and neglect of the inner child when dieting

[11:45] Our primal connection to food and eating and it’s link to safety and survival and why we can’t coax, bribe, or trick ourselves into an inauthentic relationship with feeding ourselves

[16:15] How we can change our relationship to food and intuitively seek out nutritious foods in an authentic way

[22:00] The harmful impact of using (especially hyper-palatable) food as a reward or comfort

[35:30] Lisa defines “The Division of Responsibility,” a framework, by dietician, Ellyn Satter, for families to establish a healthy association to food and eating in children and how we can apply it to feeding ourselves

[1:02] Lisa previews next week's episode and gives the listener some action items for your consideration as you prepare for part 2 of this conversation

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Lisa sits down with Judy, Maternal Child Nurse and Board Certified Lactation Consultant to talk about what we can learn from the relationship between mother and baby to heal the relationship between our own inner child and inner parent when it comes to food and eating.

Topics Include:

[1:30] Judy explains her 30 year career as a Maternal Child Nurse, Board Certified Lactation Consultant and her role in helping women be empowered in their choices

[7:00] The relationship between newborn and mother in the earliest moments of feeding and eating and the diad built between them

[14:00] Judy shares what she believes are the biggest lessons of parenthood

[23:00] What we’ve learned about feeding newborn in recent history, and the mistakes we’ve made in disrupting their own hunger and fullness cues before they are even 6 months old

[30:00] The “On the Job” training of being a first time parent and how mother’s were never meant to go it alone

[36:00] Maslow’s Hierarchy of needs and how babies live at the bottom where their basic needs are needing to be met, and all the way at the top we have self-actualization

[45:00] The holy grail of attachment and attunement

Contact Judy

Lisa continues to discuss what it means to live balanced in terms of doing versus being, right brain and left brain, and thinking versus feeling, when it comes to our bodies and how we feed ourselves in regards to nutrition.

Topics Include:

[5:50] What does it really mean for a food to be healthy versus unhealthy, when we move away from the dichotomy of good versus bad food, while we expand our definition of health

[16:00] The concept of adding in and crowding out foods in order to work with our physiology and our psychology

[29:30] Going to human school, pretending you're an alien and learning how to take care of human body on Earth and how to survive in an “Earth suit”

[40:00] Moving into a health mindset and away from a diet culture/weight mindset and what that looks like when grocery shopping and choosing foods, considering the source of our food, and how to begin to look at a food label, and identify real food

[1:10] Living in a state of abundance and safety rather than restriction and fear

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Lisa discusses what it means to live balanced in terms of doing versus being, right brain and left brain, and thinking versus feeling, when it comes to our bodies and how we feed ourselves

Topics Include:

[4:00] Aiming for balance with: doing and being, right and left brain, and thinking and feeling

[17:00] Doing and being in terms of food, eating, and body image

[23:00] Being intuitive with our bodies, both emotionally and physically, how to feel our feelings versus thinking about our feelings, and staying present with our body’s sensations and how this helps heal our relationship with food

[30:00] Moving from living in your brain to living in your brain and your body and why some struggle around the concept of intuitive eating

[41:00] Why we are moving away from “Good Food” vs “Bad Food” Dichotomy

[44:00] Being a “scientist” around food and eating

[46:30] The concept of bio-individuality, and how it must be at the root of nutrition

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Lisa talks to her right hand woman, Out of the Cave’s very first employee, Alé Cardinalle, MSW, about her own personal story around food, eating, and body image, as well as her journey from diet culture, to anti-diet culture, and ultimately to Out of the Cave, and Lisa.

Topics Include:

[5:15] Alé talks about her awareness and sort of obsessive thoughts around body size and image  began

[8:35] How the early 2000s beauty standards led Alé to dangerous  restrictive  behaviors

[12:15] Alé goes to inpatient treatment for PTSD and major depression and loses a significant amount of weight and for fear of gaining it back asked to be prescribed adderall

[21:15]  After major weight loss, followed by major weight gain, Alé finds intuitive eating and when that wasn’t quite the  fix she hoped for, Lisa fell into her life while they were both Master of Social Work Students at NYU

[32:15] Alé goes into detail about her personal experience with the anti-diet movement

[44:15] What spirituality means to Alé, and how learning to trust herself and tell the truth have been integral components to her healing journey around food, eating, and body image

Connect with Alé

Lisa sits down with former client, Eliza, to have a deep talk about how diet culture, fatphobia, and body dysmorphia affect even those who have never had a "weight problem."

Topics Include:

[3:00] Eliza recalls her early relationship to food and eating and how her food limited palette affected her going into puberty, and how being exposed to an adult struggling with their own relationship to food and eating, opened her up to a world of dieting and body image issues

[7:00] Eliza talks about an adult in her life commenting on her changing body and how she internalized these changes as “bad”

[13:00] Eliza remembers the influence of magazines, television, and media in general on her perception of her own body and how going to extreme lengths to control and manipulate your body was normalized

[21:00]  Eliza looks back on her college years, being away from her family, gaining some weight, and comparing herself to her peers

[26:30] Eliza talks about the awakening she had that allowed her to leave diet culture, begin to heal her relationship to food, eating, and body image, and work with Lisa and how through the work her goals changed when it came to pursuing weight loss

[35:00] Lisa recalls a story during her and Eliza’s time together that she still often thinks about to this day, Eliza reacts and gives an update

[41:00] Eliza talks about reclaiming things like exercise, hunger, and potatoes, after leaving diet culture and working with Lisa

[53:00] Eliza gives advice to someone who may just be starting on their healing journey around food, eating, and body image

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In this episode, whether you are under eating, over eating, restrictively eating, struggling with disordered eating, Lisa discusses how this may have happened to you and how you can move toward a healthier more peaceful relationship with food and eating.

Topics Include:

[15:10] What it looks like to embody your true self when it comes to your body, weight, shape, and size

[23:30] Looking at where our false self is in charge, calling the shots, and causing us to objectify ourselves and asking when did thinking this way start?

[32:30] How to come home to your true self and get your needs met

[36:50] Lisa shares some personal stories about what returning to the true self looked like for her during her semester at sea

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Lisa and Tiffany have a candid conversation about childhood trauma and weight gain, becoming an “after picture,” and reckoning with life after that experience.

Topics Include:

[7:21] Tiffany recounts her earliest relationship to food, eating, and her body starting from the hardship her mother faced while Tiffany was in utero

[14:58] Tiffany shares the earliest messages she received about body shape and size and how those messages affect her to this day

[20:09] Tiffany loses weight due to serious illness and shares her family’s reaction to that weight loss

[23:39] Tiffany tells about the impact growing up in a strict religion with rigid ideas on what a woman’s purpose is caused her to “run away from home,” and get married at 19 and how that impacted her relationship to food and her weight

[29:40] How a major health scare, motherhood, and Hurricane Katrina led Tiffany to a weight loss journey and how a 136 pound loss allowed her to become awake to so many other issues going on in her life

[41:00] Tiffany shares the methods and strategies she used to allow her to feel her feelings rather than chase them away with food and eating

[50:40] Tiffany explains how her weight loss journey led her to wake up to the abuse in her marriage and her three year path out of that marriage

[53:40] Tiffany shares her experience about being a weight loss success story and how it was a trap

[1:04:39] Practicing self-friendship on the road to self-love

Connect with Tiffany

Lisa continues the conversation on truth, and how embodying truth can help you to heal your relationship to food, eating, and body image.

Topics Include:

[3:30] “Unmuting” your inner child

[9:00] Telling the whole truth by allowing fear and joy to exist at the same time

[14:00] Lisa reads a piece she wrote years ago about her experience being constantly praised by others after extreme and rapid weight loss while a student at the University of Michigan and active member of Greek life

[26:00] Lisa recounts a time in 2016 where she was a participant at a Jon Gabriel retreat and being asked, “What are the benefits to having the extra weight on your body?” and how that was question created a wave of total honesty amongst the attendees

[37:00] You’ve told the whole truth, now what?

[42:00] Society’s polarized point of views on weight loss and other’s opinion about how a smaller body will actually make you feel

[46:30] The function of the false self, ego, or shadow self and feeling happy versus feeling safe

[53:30] Why the mainstream means of weight loss necessarily can’t work for us long term

[54:30] Lisa assigns you, the listener, homework

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Lisa explains why embodying your truth and coming home to yourself is essential in healing your relationship to food, weight, and body image and gives real life examples of what that has looked like in her own journey.

Topics Include:

[3:00] What happens to our mind/body when our emotional reservoir is flooding

[6:48] How did we come to a place where we are asking others, “How should I eat?” rather than feeling like we can naturally practice intuitive eating

[8:30] Lisa explains the death of her five month old baby sister was the beginning of disconnecting from her own emotions and how that led to her “disordered” relationship with food

[16:00] The importance for allowing space for pain, grief, anger, sadness, etc., even when feeling won’t change anything

[19:30] How Lisa was able to ignore her weight and that she didn’t look the same as her peers, even in the face of bullies

[28:17] Lisa’s therapist’s reaction to her 150 pound weight loss and how their sessions began to change and become more vulnerable

[34:30] What happens when we stop pretending, tell the truth, and give our inner child a voice

[41:30] Lisa explains how it felt good on one hand to be seen as an “after picture,” and explains  how she also felt so unseen

[45:22] How a night in the ER forced Lisa into facing real and true fears and stressors with the help of Nicole Sachs

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Lisa has an illuminating conversation with group alum Kate about her year “out of the cave,” and the parallels between her relationship with emotional eating and her relationship to alcohol.

Topics Include:

[5:30] Kate talks about the lesson of starting before you’re “ready” and meeting yourself where you’re at

[10:30] Why we still have “diet thoughts”

[13:00] A nuanced look at Whole30 and can we take elements of diets out of love for ourselves?

[15:40] The distinction between feeling uncomfortable and feeling unsafe

[24:23] Seeing yourself and your relationship to food and eating as an experiment and not a practice in perfection

[28:00] Kate describes uncovering the link between her father’s alcoholism and her own relationship with food

[38:15] What is the “end goal” of healing our relationship to food and eating? Do we get to a point where no matter what food is in our home that we feel neutral about it?

[56:00] What is addiction when it comes to food?

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