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The Living Church Podcast

The Living Church Podcast

By The Living Church

The Living Church Podcast explores ecumenical topics in theology, the arts, ethics, pastoral care, and spiritual growth — all to equip and encourage leaders in the Episcopal Church, Anglican Communion, and beyond. A ministry of the Living Church Institute
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Transforming Conflict with Jerusalem Peacebuilders

The Living Church PodcastJun 03, 2022

God's Gender with Amy Peeler
Apr 20, 202337:56
Suffering and Grace at the Border with Victoria Tester

Suffering and Grace at the Border with Victoria Tester

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Meditating on the Passion, on the Lord's suffering for us, we often recall times and places of other suffering -- in our own hearts, our lives, the lives of others. Several weeks ago, I was introduced to a woman who has seen what it's like for God to bear witness to himself in the life and sufferings of his people in profound ways across borders: borders of nationality and religious tradition; across the lines of sinner and saint, priest and prostitute. These stories are about some of God's people living at the border of Mexico and the U.S., and how a New Mexico photographer and writer found herself, over and over, involved in the work, the suffering, the questions and prayers of folks in a small town called Palomas. These stories are also about how God works in and through the wounds of our lives as we meet very similar wounds in our neighbors. How do the marks of violence and pain become doors to grace?

My guest is Victoria Tester. Victoria is a Third Order Franciscan and a member of St. Mark's Episcopal Church in Coleman, Texas. She is a poet and playwright and a recipient of awards that include an Academy of American Poets prize and a Willa Cather Literary Award. She has also worked as a photographer and founded the San Isidro Bean Project which, in a time of famine, made over a million meals possible in cooperation with a family farm.

We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Apr 06, 202340:58
Forgive Us Our Debts with Rachel Taber-Hamilton, Todd Hunter, and Nigel Biggar

Forgive Us Our Debts with Rachel Taber-Hamilton, Todd Hunter, and Nigel Biggar

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Welcome to the final episode of Lent in 2023. We are going to hear from 7 guests about their take on some aspect of the words of Our Lord's prayer: forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors. The forgiveness of debts -- especially as it applies to the lives of Christian leaders -- how do we make forgiveness a habit? Call for forgiveness in communities after atrocity and hurt? Cultivate forgiveness from the heart? Know when we need to offer it, especially among the daily slings and arrows of church administration, expectations, and daily drama. We'll talk about the forgiveness of ancestral wrongs, and how forgiveness is possible in the midst of social injustice. And how about forgiving literal debt? Anyone up for that? How might Jesus' shepherding of us, his gentle call to forgiveness, pervade all these areas of our lives, and gain ground for grace, and for his glory?

I had the joy of speaking to each of these guests:

  • Dr. Nigel Biggar, theologian, ethicist, and author of Colonialism: A Moral Reckoning; regius professor of moral and pastoral theology at the University of Oxford; and director of the McDonald Centre for Theology, Ethics, and Public Life. 
  • The Rev. Dr. Cheryl Bridges Johns, visiting professor at United Theological Seminary and director of their global Pentecostal House of Studies.
  • The Rt. Rev. Dhiloraj Canagasabey, Bishop of Colombo in Sri Lanka and former Presiding Bishop of the Church of Ceylon.
  • The Rev. Stephen Crawford, rector of St. Mary's Episcopal Church in Franklin, Louisiana.
  • The Rt. Rev. Todd Hunter, church planter and Bishop of the Diocese of Churches for the Sake of Others in the Anglican Church in North America.
  • The Rev. David Sibley, rector of St. Paul's Episcopal Church in Walla Walla, Washington, and -- I'm sorry David I had to add -- four-time Jeopardy champion.
  • And the Rev. Rachel Taber-Hamilton, Rector of Trinity Episcopal Church in Everett, Washington, and Vice President of the House of Deputies of the Episcopal Church.

Hold on tight to your purple stoles. Forgiveness can be a bumpy ride. But it's one the Lord promises to bless us and help us on.

Mar 23, 202355:48
How Low Can You Go?: Low Anthropology with David Zahl

How Low Can You Go?: Low Anthropology with David Zahl

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I was never very good at limbo. I remember repeated forced limbo games in school, on spirit days or athletics days, or the occasional picnic. The attempt to sincerely try to get as low as you could go, in front of everybody -- well, the chances of failure seemed too high for my pride. I was gangly, averse to physical embarrassment. So instead of really trying, I made a goofy show of failing. If I couldn't win, I'd make people laugh. I'd flail my arms and knock down the pole. They couldn't make me go low. My little form of protest. My little version of perfectionism.

Mockingbird Ministries director, David Zahl, has just released a book called Low Anthropology, in hopes of reaching a perfectionism-saturated Western culture with the grace and love of God. The life God has for us -- of joy, peace, and yes, righteousness, becoming better at being human, begin and subsist, first and always, in humility and a realistic view of ourselves and others. If that book could have spoken to my limbo-evading self, it might say, "Enough with the pretense dear, goofy, misguided child of God. You're going to fail. You're going to look stupid and be ridiculous. You're going to do it wrong. It's not about how low you can go. You're human -- you're already pretty low. The difference is, do you want to go through this with grace? And have some genuine laughs along the way?"

David Zahl is founder and director of Mockingbird Ministries and editor-in-chief of the Mockingbird website. David also serves on the staff of Christ Episcopal Church, Charlottesville, Virginia, as college and adult education minister. He is the author of A Mess of Help: From the Crucified Soul of Rock N’ Roll; Seculosity: How Career, Parenting, Technlogy, Food, Politics, and Romance Became Our New Religion and What To Do About It; and his newest book is, of course, Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself).

Our interviewer is the Rev. Zac Koons, rector of St. Mark's Episcopal Church in Austin, Texas.

A word about our human plight is, through Jesus, always a word of hope. And we hope you enjoy the conversation.

Check out Low Anthropology: The Unlikely Key to a Gracious View of Others (and Yourself).

Mar 09, 202339:32
Lent Is a Gift for You (Yes, You) with Esau McCaulley

Lent Is a Gift for You (Yes, You) with Esau McCaulley

Welcome back podcast listeners. And welcome to Lent. Whether you're relatively new to Lent, old hat, or just really not that into it if you're honest -- totally cool. We've got a little something for everyone today -- to think about, enjoy, maybe even new to glean for your Lenten practice.

My guest today is the Rev. Dr. Esau McCaulley, has just released a brief, readable, and very wise guide to the season of Lent. And I'm looking forward to sharing our conversation with you.

We talked about our own journeys into discovering Lent and the church seasons. We wrestle with the relationship between Lenten practices and spiritual maturity, such as the dangers of relying on ritual, as well as the dangers of running from it.

How do we discern sin in an anxiety-ridden, shame-saturated, fearful world? Is there a relationship between personal fasting and social justice? If your car breaks down close to a church, should you take it as a sign and just go in and see what's going on? And perhaps most importantly, speaking of cars, if your spiritual life were a car, what would it be?

Esau is associate professor of New Testament at Wheaton College in Wheaton, Illinois, and theologian in residence at Progressive Baptist Church in Chicago. He is the author of four available books, Lent: The Season of Repentance and Renewal, Sharing in the Son’s Inheritance, Reading While Black: African American Biblical Interpretation as an Exercise in Hope, and Josey Johnson’s Hair and the Holy Spirit. He is a contributing opinion writer for the New York Times and has a memoir coming out in September.

Now put away that chocolate and settle in. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Give to the Living Church 

Check out Esau's books:

Lent: The Season of Repentance and Renewal
Sharing in the Son’s Inheritance
Reading While Black: African American Biblical Interpretation as an Exercise in Hope
Josey Johnson’s Hair and the Holy Spirit
How Far to the Promised Land? (new memoir)

Feb 23, 202346:14
Good Ol' Anglican Reserve: Leadership Lessons from the 19th Century

Good Ol' Anglican Reserve: Leadership Lessons from the 19th Century

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What's more important, unity or justice?

Today we're travelling back in time with the Rev. Dr. Brandt Montgomery and the Rt. Rev. R. William Franklin to look at some influential figures from the Episcopal past -- John Henry Hobart and the founders of Saint James School in Maryland -- and how they influenced the shapes of political engagement of Anglicans in the United States. We'll examine the choices they made that encouraged justice and flourishing among God's people, especially among Black Anglicans -- or not; and mistakes they made that, however clear or unclear they were at the time, we can now see in retrospect. What can we learn from them?

One interesting pattern that we'll trace from the 19th century to today is the high-church Anglican habit of reserve, which often includes a strategy of gradualism or reticence when it comes to social justice issues. How do you balance social justice with a peaceful or coherent community life? Is it a matter of balance? Or some other kind of equation?

Together Father Brandt and Bishop Franklin will examine this speckled history as it plays out in these leaders' responses to social ills and evils, especially those that affect Black Americans, from slavery to civil rights. And what do the Anglo-Catholics have to do with all of this?

Bishop Bill Franklin is assisting bishop in the Episcopal Diocese of Long Island. He was previously Bishop of Western New York, and has also served, among other places, at St. Paul's Within the Walls in Rome, as associate director of the American Academy in Rome, and as associate priest of the Anglican Centre in Rome. He served as dean of Berkeley Divinity School at Yale, and as a professor at the General Theological Seminary in New York and at St. John's University in Minnesota.

Fr. Brandt Montgomery is the chaplain of Saint James School in Hagerstown, Maryland, having previously served as the Chaplain of Ascension Episcopal School in Lafayette, Louisiana and curate at Canterbury Episcopal Chapel and Student Center at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa. He is a trumpet player and profound lover of jazz, as well as a scholar of American religious history, Episcopal Church history, the Oxford Movement and Anglo-Catholicism, and the Civil Rights Movement.

Last but not least, our interviewer today is the Rev. Mark Michael, who is our editor and interim executive director here at the Living Church.

Now ready the horses and hold onto your garters. We're headed into 200 years of history to see what we can learn for today. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Donate to the Living Church.

Feb 09, 202343:23
 Pickleball, Jazz, and Other Holy Surprises with Doran Stambaugh

Pickleball, Jazz, and Other Holy Surprises with Doran Stambaugh

Is it the Book of Acts where someone says, "Look, here is patch of flat dirt. What should prevent us from building a pickleball court?"

So maybe not. But any of us who have been in Christian leadership for any length of time, if we have our eyes open to surprise, will experience God doing lots of things with the world and inviting us to participate, often in unpredictable ways. And when we follow, the Lord only knows what he will do.

How do you know if God is opening a door? If your community is being called to grow into a new ministry or identity? How can you tell when your own vocation might be taking a turn into new territory? Today -- and here's where we get to the jazz -- we will enjoy a case study in John Coltrane and evening prayer, pickleball courts, and an Anglo-Catholic parish on the Pacific coast pastored by someone who never wanted to be a priest in the first place. But he's since gotten used to the idea.

The Rev. Doran Stambaugh is rector at St. Michael's by-the-Sea in Carlsbad, California, where he began as curate in 2005 and where he was ordained to the priesthood. He is also a talented musician. He has learned what pickleball is, and he has a robust and ever-growing zeal for jazz and the liturgical life of the church.

We talked about the slow game of ministry in a community, embeddedness, building trust, and opening up God's sometimes subtle invitation to our neighbors, and to our common good.

Now change out that clarinet reed. Stretch out those hamstrings. And grab your prayer book. We're headed into a beautiful story of creative ministry. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Check out William Edgar's book, A Supreme Love.

Jan 26, 202348:44
Fresh Takes on Mission: Panel at Duke Divinity School

Fresh Takes on Mission: Panel at Duke Divinity School

Welcome back, dear podcast listeners. We are in our 93rd episode here at the top of Epiphanytide, and I hope you had a peaceful and happy Christmas.

As Jesus' identity is revealed to the world, first to the Wise Men and later at the Jordan River, how can those who receive this gift be witnesses to his life and love, and not either lose a sense of who he is or who we are or what his presence does in the world, or go about flying our Christian flag in such a way that we're accidentally recruiting for team pirate instead of team Prince of Peace?

Last November I had a conversation about mission and evangelism at Duke Divinity School with three friends you've heard on this show before. And I want to share that conversation with you here. It offers fresh and surprising insights from three different contexts: high-powered Manhattan, funky and fabulous Austin Texas, and booming immigrant communities in Dallas. What does it look like for Christian communities, and especially churches, to be involved in sharing the gospel in their own neighborhoods? There aren't many how-tos in our conversation today, but the adventures my guests describe, the trouble they get into for the kingdom, aren't for the faint of heart, either.

I was joined by the Rev. Jacob Smith, the Rev. Dr. Samira Page, and the Rev. Dr. Shawn McCain Tirres. I'll introduce them all in the episode today.

Finally, special thanks to the Anglican Episcopal House of Studies at Duke and Duke Divinity School for hosting this conversation, as part of their Symposium on the Future of Anglican Theological Education in North America.

We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Learn more about the Anglican Episcopal House of Studies at Duke.
Give to the Living Church.

Jan 12, 202301:01:55
Pastor to a President with Russ Levenson

Pastor to a President with Russ Levenson

Make a holiday donation to TLC.

Welcome, listeners, to our Christmas chat episode of the Living Church, our final episode of the year. Kick back with a hot cider and listen on.

Fr. Mark Michael, our interim executive director and editor of the Living Church magazine asked if he could sit down with a good friend of TLC, the Rev. Dr. Russ Levenson, to talk about Russ's new and intriguing book.

What is it like to pastor a president? Russ Levenson has spent many years as rector of St. Martin's Episcopal Church in Houston, Texas, and among his parishioners, he has had the fascinating job of shepherding and observing the spiritual lives of fellow Episcopalians, former president George and Barbara Bush. His new book about it is called Witness to Dignity: the Life and Faith of George H.W. and Barbara Bush.

While religion and politics can get tied up in so many unhelpful ways, and we'd be hard-pressed to point to a set of genuine, bonafide, good old days, it is probably safe to say that dignity is not a bad thing, and learning from the strengths of a previous generation of leadership, as well as their weaknesses, is a worthy endeavor.

Russ Levenson has been rector of St. Martin’s for 15 years. He has served in many capacities in the Episcopal Church as pastor, council member, and a leader in global charitable and humanitarian organizations, including medical services and veterans' care. St. Martin's also serves as a Living Church Partner.

How is a president also a local parishioner? And how does it work do be their pastor, even just practically speaking? How do you help a former president to age and die well? What might it mean for a world leader to also be an authentic person of faith?

We will hear many interesting stories today. But before I pass the mic to Mark, let me add that a sense of good humor might not be the least of the impacts of faith on leadership. Comedian Dana Carvey developed a, let's say, famous impersonation of the former president, and what was President Bush's response? Take a look at the show notes today -- not only to click the link to give to TLC, of course, but also to see the former president's answer to being lampooned. It's a pretty good one.

Now whether you're in the Oval Office or just a normal square one, the white house or brick, Air Force One or your Camry, we hope you enjoy the conversation.

Make a holiday donation to TLC.

Watch George H.W. Bush and Dana Carvey. 

Read Russ Levenson's book.

Dec 15, 202242:32
Being Human, Inhabiting Time with James K.A. Smith

Being Human, Inhabiting Time with James K.A. Smith

Make a holiday donation to the Living Church.

Today is a special day on the liturgical calendar. It is what the fathers and mothers of the Church knew as the "First Podcast of Advent." Welcome to this wonderful time of waiting.

And we've got a treat for you almost as sweet as those baked goodies you're wondering whether or not to fast from because this is technically a penitential season: we welcome author and philosopher James K.A. Smith, who has written such books as Imagining the Kingdom and You Are What You Love: The Spiritual Power of Habit, and most recently, How to Inhabit Time. We've got a cozy Advent chat with him on his new book, How to Inhabit Time, from his home in Grand Rapids.

How do we live in time? And how do we resist -- how are Christians some of the worst at resisting -- living in time? How does time make us vulnerable, but also give us a sobering kind of power? And what does it mean that time is one of the conditions in which God becomes Immanuel to us?

It will be no surprise to you, given what I've just said, that James K.A. Smith is professor of philosophy at Calvin University. Over the years he has become an engaged public intellectual and cultural critic, an award-winning author, and a widely traveled speaker, building bridges between the academy, society, and the Church.

The author of a number of widely-known books, Jamie's writing has also appeared in the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and USA Today, as well as in influential literary and religious magazines. He serves as editor in chief of Image, a quarterly journal at the intersection of art, faith, and mystery.

We talk keeping time and catching curve balls, walking through houses once-loved, the charms and dangers of longing for the past, time as an adventure, and the radical freedom and trust the Incarnation invites us into. Lord of the Rings comes in, as well as the Left Behind series, Wes Anderson, and lots of German philosophers. We had a lovely time.

So cuddle up with a warm, frothy cup of whatever penitential holiday drink you feel like -- and if you're in the car, make sure you've got a lid securely on it -- we hope you enjoy the conversation.

Make a holiday donation to the Living Church.

Read How to Inhabit Time.

Dec 01, 202252:22
Exit Interview with Christopher Wells

Exit Interview with Christopher Wells

Subscribe to The Living Word Plus -- 30% off with an annual subscription.
Learn more about the Anglican Heritage Pilgrimage.

Today's episode is bittersweet. When we were recording it, we were saying goodbye, now we have said goodbye to our executive director of 13 years, Dr. Christopher Wells -- the inimitable Christopher Wells -- and in today's episode, I sit down with him for a little heart-to-heart. An exit interview, if you will. We reflect together on his time at TLC, his own sense of calling, and what next for him in his new role in London. And how can you have a conversation with Christopher without also talking about Anglican history? We do talk about Anglican history, and little about the history of the Living Church as a magazine and a movement; about the vocation of Anglicanism; and about how evangelical, Catholic, and ecumenical go together like Stanley Hauerwas, George Lindbeck, and the Second Vatican Council.

For those of you who sense some insider baseball up in here, you are absolutely right, and like baseball, you will still enjoy yourself even if you don't know everything that's going on. So grab yourself a hotdog and stick with us. We'll be entertaining and edifying as always. But there will definitely be some goodies in here for those interested in the Living Church's history and mission, and what further cahoots might look like with, for example, the Anglican Communion Office in London.

Speaking of which, Dr. Christopher Wells is the new Director of Unity Faith and Order for the Anglican Communion Office. He was executive director and publisher of the Living Church Foundation for 13 years. He is affiliate professor of theology at the General Theological Seminary and Nashotah House Theological Seminary, where he teaches courses on Augustine of Hippo, Thomas Aquinas, and Anglican ecclesiology. He has served as theological consultant to the Anglican-Roman Catholic Consultation in the U.S. (ARC-USA), is a prolific writer and editor, as well as a runner and an appreciator of good food. You definitely want to have dinner with Christopher. I also count him as a friend.

And like me, I hope you enjoy the conversation.

Subscribe to The Living Word Plus -- 30% off with an annual subscription.
Learn more about the Anglican Heritage Pilgrimage.

Nov 17, 202253:04
Saints and Standup Comedy with Jen Fulwiler

Saints and Standup Comedy with Jen Fulwiler

Subscribe to The Living Word Plus -- 30% off with an annual subscription.
Learn more about the Anglican Heritage Pilgrimage. 

Objection 1: It would seem that there cannot be a virtue about comedy. For Ambrose says: "Our Lord said: 'Woe to you who laugh.'" Wherefore I consider that all, and not only excessive, comedy should be avoided. I answer that: Just as man needs bodily rest for the body's refreshment, since his power is finite, so too is it with his soul, whose power is also finite. And the soul's rest is pleasure. Consequently, the remedy for weariness of soul must needs consist in the application of some pleasure. Now such like words or deeds wherein nothing further is sought than the soul's delight, are called playful or humorous. 

Happy recent feast of All Saints' and All Souls' dear listeners, and Happy all Hallow's Eve. And my apologies to any Thomas Aquinas scholars out there who noticed the very small liberties -- very, very small -- that I just took with the Summa Theologica. 

What hath the saints to do with laughter? That is the question, in the nutshell, that I pose to my guest today, comedian Jen Fulwiler. Scripture and Christian tradition have much to say about joy, much to say about truth and truth-telling, and much to say about being human and growing into our full humanity before God. And all of these, I propose, are related to humor, laughter, and learning to tell our stories. 

Jennifer Fulwiler is a standup comic, bestselling author, former Sirius XM talk show host, and mom of six. Her podcast, This Is Jen, now The Jen Fulweiler Show, debuted in the Comedy Top 10 on iTunes. She is the one-woman show of The Naughty Corner standup comedy special and author of Something Other Than God, One Beautiful Dream, and Your Blue Flame. And: she's on tour! Tickets are on sale at You can follow her on Instagram at @JenniferFulwiler. 

We will talk today about standup comedy and the saints, about Jen's journey into Christianity, about holiness and laughter, and about the common grace that comedy reveals. 

And yet humor must "befit the hour and the man" (thank you again St. Thomas) -- so we'll also talk about how truthfulness, maturity, and facing reality can actually make a comedian funnier. 

Word to the wise, if you preach, if you pastor, I would listen to this conversation in that light too. What hath preaching to do with standup comedy? What might these art forms have in common? 

Finally, I make passing mention in the podcast of something called "blue" comedy -- and that simply means comedy you would not listen to with your children in the car. Or with your parents for that matter. 

(You can listen to today's episode with children and parents in the car.) 

But now, since "it is against reason for a man to be burdensome to others by hindering their enjoyment" (God bless you, St. Thomas), we hope you enjoy the conversation. 

See Jen Fulwiler live!
Check out Jen's books.
Check out Jen's comedy podcast. 

Subscribe to The Living Word Plus -- 30% off with an annual subscription.
Learn more about the Anglican Heritage Pilgrimage.

Nov 03, 202250:04
Happy Pastor: Executive Functioning Tips and Tricks

Happy Pastor: Executive Functioning Tips and Tricks

What is it, like, 4 weeks until the start of Advent? I am not the kind of person to turn a holiday or a holy season into a time of stress. Believe me. But for everyone pastoring a church, or even on the staff of a church, or even a seriously involved person at a church, will know there are times when things "ramp up" liturgically speaking. When the calendar gets busier. And those can be times of great joy, some of the most fun planning work in a church's year. It can also be a time when the seams show: stress, disorganization, those structural pieces you could have gotten into place six months ago that would have made this easier, but you just never got around to it.

If this sounds familiar at all, you may really enjoy our conversation today about administrative skill and executive functioning, and how they help churches and pastors stay sane, and preach the gospel.

I'm talking today with the Rev. Aaron Zimmerman. Aaron is rector at St. Alban's Episcopal Church in Waco, Texas. He is past President of the Board of Directors of Mockingbird Ministries and is currently on the advisory board for StoryMakers NYC, a creative studio that designs Christian resources for kids. He is currently the Dean for the Northwest Convocation of the Diocese of Texas, and co-hosts the Same Old Song lectionary podcast with the Rev. Jacob Smith.

We take about the whys and wherefores of getting organized, karate chopping emails, setting standing meetings, delegating tasks, taking time off --  but we're not here to heap onto your to-do list shame pile. No! Aaron's got some tips, too, to help you get started, including a word or two for staying gracious with yourself, even as you improve your administrative skills.

Register for The Word of God Endures Forever.

Check out Aaron's podcast, Same Old Song

Oct 20, 202245:49
Ordinary Grace: Forming Clergy in a Fractured Church with Annette Brownlee

Ordinary Grace: Forming Clergy in a Fractured Church with Annette Brownlee

Register for "The Word of God Endures Forever" webinar.

Our guest today is the Rev. Dr. Annette Brownlee, chaplain, director of field education and professor of pastoral theology at Wycliffe College, a theological school that forms many Anglicans and Christians of other traditions, in Toronto, Ontario. And she is someone who has had a profound influence in many lives of clergy and clery in training, whether they're serving in the Episcopal Church or elsewhere. She is the person whose door, in her own words, people knock on and say, "Can I come talk to you?" She is someone I have wanted to talk to for some time, and I finally got a chance to get her on the other side of the mic to ask her what it takes to nurture and disciple people who will very soon be leaders in God's Church -- many of them in the beautiful and broken family we know as Anglican.

We talk together about how training young ministers to be effective means teaching them to be rooted and ecumenical. In a school where Episcopal and Catholic students learn Greek with Reformed ACNA and non-denom students, what happens in this kind of context? And how can the challenge and opportunity it presents be pressed into formation? So you're not into corporate prayer? Well you need it. Crack open that prayer book! And you? You're in love with the BCP, the liturgy? Reverent with your burses and veils? Great! Now go sing praise songs and help serve soup at that storefront church.

Much of what we talk about centers also on teaching seminarians early to value and know the power of the Holy Spirit in the quotidian and the small, because much of parish life -- and indeed our life given as creatures -- is made of exactly this small dailyness. And if moments of heroic decision or action come for any of us, they'll depend on what we did without being noticed. The de-centering of oneself and learning the art of humilty -- something we could all benefit from.

Before coming to Wycliffe Annette was in fulltime parish ministry for many years. She currently assists and preaches at St. Paul’s L’Amoreaux in Scarborough. Her research interests include the multiple implications of preaching Scripture as the church’s book, Augustine’s divine pedagogy as a rule of life for preachers, the sermons of André Trocmé, and a model of theological reflection based on the Spirit’s use of Scripture in the Church. She is married to Ephraim Radner and they have two children.

Strap on your knapsack. Zip up your anorak. We're going to Canada. We may even see a bit of what the future of Anglican formation looks like.

Register for "The Word of God Endures Forever" webinar.

Oct 06, 202245:36
From College to Calling: Deploying Gen Z with Theresa Wilson
Sep 22, 202242:46
Lambeth 2022 in Review with Joseph Wandera and Jenny Andison

Lambeth 2022 in Review with Joseph Wandera and Jenny Andison

Join us in Oklahoma City for the Love's Redeeming Work Conference. Podcast listeners use discount code FRIEND25 for 25% off all tickets. Click here for tickets.


What happened at the Lambeth Conference? This week we've got two bishops fresh from Lambeth, coming in to share what they saw and heard. We'll talk Resolution I.10, missing provinces, the ministry of the archbishop, practical takeaways, how easy it is to get lost in the woods of Kent, and much more.

After all the important forecasting and reporting, we note this week the importance of presence. The sense of places and people, emotional impressions, food, weather, silences, tense moments, and what makes you laugh -- they're vital. Both of our guests today brought home a lot from the conference, for themselves and their communities. With differing perspectives, and with the different communities they minister to, our guests today describe a diversity and yet striking commonality to what they experienced at Lambeth -- a commonality that is enlightening.

The Rt. Rev. Dr. Joseph Wandera is Bishop of the Anglican Diocese of Mumias, Kenya, former professor at St. Paul’s University, Limuru, and has served on various committees of the Anglican Communion, including Theological Education in the Anglican Communion (TEAC).

The Rt. Rev. Jenny Andison is Rector at St. Paul's Bloor St. in Toronto. She's the former area Bishop of York-Credit Valley in the Diocese of Toronto and has served in Toronto for many years. Bishop Jenny has also served in the Diocese of London (UK), and the Diocese of Tokyo.


Join us in Oklahoma City for the Love's Redeeming Work Conference. Podcast listeners use discount code FRIEND25 for 25% off all tickets. Click here for tickets.

Sep 09, 202244:16
Why Pay Attention to Pentecostals? with Cheryl Bridges Johns and Joanildo Burity

Why Pay Attention to Pentecostals? with Cheryl Bridges Johns and Joanildo Burity

Pentecost and ecumenism; magical realism and the environment; the Trump era and the rise of the religious right; Azusa street and the empowering of the poor; and a few Lord of the Rings references for good measure.

Today we have two very special guests, one of them a professor of mine from grad school, the other a new friend and colleague in the Anglican Church in Brazil. All of us have a Pentecostal background as well as an interest in theology, the social sphere, and ecumenical conversation. My guests have a trove of wisdom and stories about how Pentecosalism in the U.S. and Latin America shape the Christian imagination, interact with institutional Christianity, affect the lives of the poor, and challenge the Church to a more sensitive witness in our time.

The Rev. Dr. Cheryl Bridges Johns is visiting professor at United Theological Seminary and director of their Global Pentecostal House of Studies. She is past president of the Society for Pentecostal Studies and a leading Pentecostal ecumenist, and was a participant in the International Roman Catholic-Pentecostal Dialogue and active in the Commission on Faith and Order for the National Council of Churches (1992-1996). She is the author of Pentecostal Formation: A Pedagogy Among the Oppressed and Reenchanting the Text: Discovering the Bible as Sacred, Dangerous, and Mysterious.

Dr. Joanildo Burity is a political scientist, lead researcher and professor in the Professional Masters of sociology at the Joaquim Nabuco Foundation in Brazil, and professor in the Postgraduate Programme in Sociology and Political Science at the Federal University of Pernambuco. He was senior lecturer and Director of the Faith and Globalisation Programme at Durham University, UK and a member of the Anglican Consultative Council. Joanildo is an active lay leader in the Anglican Church in Brazil. He is the author of Faith in Revolution: An Analysis of the Northeastern Conference (2012), and a recent number of articles on religion and politics in South America.

Check out Cheryl's work.

Check out Joanildo's work.

Subscribe to the Living Church.

Aug 25, 202259:04
Making Room for Leadership with MaryKate Morse
Aug 11, 202246:51
What's Up with Lambeth?

What's Up with Lambeth?

It's Lambeth Week! The Lambeth Conference is a gathering of bishops every ten years from across the Anglican Communion — though the schedule occasionally gets off track, such as during WWII and the Covid pandemic. They meet for prayer and reflection, fellowship and dialogue on church and world affairs.

Why should you, O listener who may not be an Anglican bishop, or even an Anglican, care about the Lambeth Conference? We'll get to that. What has been up since the last Lambeth Conference in the church globally? The last 14 years in the world? Quite a lot. How will church leaders respond to complex questions on issues like Christian teaching on human sexuality and human rights? How will they make room for everyone at the table? Is there safe space to be honest, and how do people who disagree discern the call of the gospel together? How do you reconcile ecclesial tensions and heal old wounds? What do we make of former Abp. Rowan Williams's and Abp. Justin Welby's different approaches to the paradoxes and pressures of Anglicanism, including the rise of the ACNA and GAFCON, and important bishops who boycott the conference altogether?

We'll discuss all of these things and more with the Rev. Dr. Andrew Goddard and the Rev. Dr. David Goodhew.

Andrew Goddard was on a previous episode discussing the Living in Love and Faith curriculae. He's assistant minister at St James the Less, Pimlico, London; tutor in Christian ethics at Ridley Hall in Cambridge and Westminster Theological Centre; and member of the Church of England Evangelical Council. He published two recent pieces on our Covenant blog on "Lambeth in Retrospect."

David Goodhew is a visiting fellow of St. Johns College, Durham University, and vicar at St. Barnabas Church, Middlesbrough, England. He has also been prolific on Covenant lately with four articles: "Lambeth 2022 and African Anglicanism"; "Is the Anglican Communion Growing or Dying? New Data"; "Whither the CofE?"; and "The Episcopal Church in 2050."

Read the Windsor Report.

Read the Lambeth Calls.

Keep up with Lambeth news on or by following us on Twitter or Facebook.

Read our blog, Covenant.

Jul 28, 202250:24
Faith, Leadership, and Artistic License: Under the Banner of Heaven

Faith, Leadership, and Artistic License: Under the Banner of Heaven

Under the Banner of Heaven is a true-crime series based on a book, about the murder of a young Mormon woman, Brenda Lafferty (Daisy Edgar Jones), and her young daughter and the subsequent investigation of that murder. The show's creator is an ex-Mormon, Dustin Lance Black. And he invents a character, a police detective, Jeb Pyre (Andrew Garfield), who is also a Mormon. And Jeb's investigation of this case starts interacting with his faith, it brings up larger questions about religious faith and faithfulness as it faces evil, hypocrisy, and the ugliest truths. Can it survive? How does media tend to get these kind of pictures right, bring up the right kinds of questions? And what does it often miss?

Today we welcome Dr. Patrick Q. Mason. Patrick holds the Leonard J. Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University. He is the author of several books including Mormonism and Violence: The Battles of Zion; The Mormon Menace: Violence and Anti-Mormonism in the Postbellum South; and Proclaim Peace: The Restoration's Answer to an Age of Conflict. He was a Fulbright Scholar and is a past president of the Mormon History Association. Patrick is frequently consulted by the media on stories related to Mormon culture and history and is himself a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Now put on your sunglasses and sunblock, because we're headed to Utah, and into the heart of some tough questions about what it means to be a person of faith, not just as a Mormon in the 1980s, but as a Christian in our world today. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Check out Patrick's books.

Visit TLC's blog, Covenant.

View TLC's new books!

Jul 14, 202246:10
Music, Performance, and Priesthood
Jun 30, 202247:02
Follow the Science? Yes and No

Follow the Science? Yes and No

From Charles Darwin to sex robots to the Big Bang and the Gospel of John—we are going to take a journey today into the wild and woolly world of faith and science.

Faith and science—how do we have these conversations?—evolution, artificial intelligence, Covid, When does life begin?, How should it end?—how do we have these conversations in ways that are charitable and as smart as possible and leave behind some of the my-yard-sign-is-more-loving-than-your-yard sign Babel, but also admit tough questions and pose rich gospel responses?

Allow me to send all of you to our blog, Covenant, to check out two of our most recent articles on faith and science. You can find links for both of those below.

The Rev. Dr. Kara Slade will be joining me today to talk about learning how to run our fingers along the seams of faith and science. They're not seamless, not two ways of talking about the exact same thing. They don't always "agree together quickly on the way," but that disagreement need not lead us into internecine Christian wars, or wars with our neighbors—though it probably will lead us at times, and for seasons, into conflict with a prevailing ethic or vision of the world, especially when the vision threatens our ability to be human.

Kara Slade is associate rector of Trinity Church in Princeton, N.J., and canon theologian of the Diocese of New Jersey. She shepherds Anglican and Episcopal students at Princeton Theological Seminary. She holds a Ph.D. in mechanical engineering and materials science and a Ph.D. in theology, both from Duke University. Her latest book is The Fullness of Time: Jesus Christ, Science, and Modernity (Wipf and Stock).

Read Kara Slade's article, "Follow the Science? Yes and No."

Read Sarah Coakley's article, "God, Evolution, and Cooperation."

Check out Kara's latest book, The Fullness of Time: Jesus Christ, Science, and Modernity.

Find out more about the Love's Redeeming Work conference.

Jun 16, 202253:55
Transforming Conflict with Jerusalem Peacebuilders

Transforming Conflict with Jerusalem Peacebuilders

Midterm elections. General Convention. Lambeth Conference. Family dinner. A work meeting. Interacting with parishioners on social media. Seeing for the first time the bumper stickers and various car decals of the person you thought you really liked. From friendships, family, and marriage to church leadership to international politics, we live in zones of conflict. We can, and sometimes have to, avoid it. We can, and sometimes have to, manage it. But the people who lead peacebuilding programs at Jerusalem Peacebuilders believe you can always, with the right tools and time, participate in transforming conflict.

What the heck does that mean? Transforming conflict. And without avoiding religion, politics, or anything else spicy and personal. That's the question we ask today.

This topic is for everyone. How can we broach tough topics rather than protecting ever-widening safety zones of silence? The topics we avoid are often the things that make us human and able to know others as full humans. And they're often our soft spots. So if you're not a hider, and you're more a wear-your-opinion-on-your-sleeve kind of person, this episode is for you too. What if our soft spots are right where God is calling us to connect? Calling us to be courageous witnesses to relationship in polarized communities? How can we face relational challenges without running away or exploding? How do we deal with feeling triggered? And what are some tools we can use for investing patiently in the relational long run, instead of trying to fix everything now?

The Rev. Canon Nicholas Porter joins us today with his colleague Sarah Benazera. Nicholas is the founder and executive director of Jerusalem Peacebuilders, an interfaith, non-profit organization that promotes transformational, person-to-person encounters among the peoples of Jerusalem, Israel, Palestine, and the United States. A long-time resident of Europe and the Middle East, Nicholas is an educator and Episcopal priest. Sarah is Senior Educator and Curriculum Advisor of Jerusalem Peacebuilders. She is a humanist, peace-activist, storyteller and educator, with years of hands-on experience in international and intercultural dialogue.

They'll share their wisdom with us today. They'll also tell some beautiful and inspiring stories about the messy but rewarding experience of working with young people from some of the world's most contentious contexts. As Sarah and Nicholas tell us today, peacebuilding is a marathon. So let's join them to get hydrated, and get stretched.

Jun 03, 202249:42
Exploring Theosis with C.S. Lewis

Exploring Theosis with C.S. Lewis

Have you heard of a little theological term, theosis? This is an important term, beloved and taught most explicitly in Eastern Orthodox Christianity, but is at the heart of Christian hope. And, many Christians believe, at the heart of Christian experience. It's a term that grabbed my attention many years ago because to my little ol' Pentecostal heart, it captured the dynamism of life in Christ I'd been told I should pursue growing up and homed it within the life of the Church and most ancient root systems of the Christian faith. If you've not heard this word, I'll leave you with that teaser for now.

Many of us have had these moments of finding the vocabulary of the heart, or of some experience or desire we couldn't quite name, suddenly appear before us in the writings of the saints. Then when I started reading C.S. Lewis, I found a translator and a teacher of many of these concepts, and an imagination that helped me put them on a theological map -- maps that often looked like Narnia or the planet Venus.

Though Lewis doesn't use the word "theosis" in his writings, I found my understanding of this core Christian hope expand under his teaching. And I wondered how much interest in or exposure to Eastern Christianity Lewis had in his life. Who were his teachers? What do we learn through what he was learning about love's redeeming work?

So, on to theosis in the life, works, and relationships of CS Lewis. What do we find there? I had a couple of conversation partners and guides who were up to the task, and we unearthed a few delightful surprises together.

Drs. Crystal and David Downing are co-directors of the Marion E. Wade Center at Wheaton College, Illinois, which promotes the work of C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkein, Dorothy Sayers, Charles Williams, and other key British Christian authors, and helps develop new writers and scholars of faith and imagination.

Crystal formerly served as Distinguished Professor of English and Film Studies at Messiah College, and is the author of several books on Dorothy Sayers, postmodernism, and film. Her most recent book, Subversive: Christ, Culture, and the Shocking Dorothy L Sayers, won a starred review by Publisher's Weekly and was Publisher's Weekly's pick of the week.

David Downing has written several scholarly books on C.S. Lewis and provided a critical introduction and explanatory notes to the new edition of C.S. Lewis's The Pilgrim's Regress. He also serves as a consulting reader of Lewis and editorial consultant for a number of academic publishers.

Now enter the wardrobe, hop on the bus, and snuggle into your space capsule. Or hold tight to your copy of St. John Climacus. And enjoy the conversation.

Give to TLC

Learn more about the Love's Redeeming Work conference

Check out the Marion E. Wade Center

May 19, 202252:11
Women's Witness, the Church's Future

Women's Witness, the Church's Future

Happy Easter to all our listeners. We hope it's been beautiful and full of good food, nourishing time in nature or with people you love, and living into, even if in a small way, our Lord's victory.

This week, we'll hear a conversation in honor of women's vocation, dedicated to a particular saint, that woman who stayed at the empty tomb, that bold apostle to the apostles, St. Mary Magdalene.

The ordination of women, much less women's spiritual leadership and authority more generally, is not an issue from a bygone era. It's still a live question in many parts of the Church, as we know, and in many parts of the Anglican world. How does healthy, continued discernment happen, while maintaining unity in the Church? How does rooted transition happen when the time comes to change things? How can excavating history be a part of the Holy Spirit's work in helping the Church discern good paths forward?

Women's leadership is a good case in point. And today we look specifically at the question of whether to open the ordained diaconate to women in the Roman Catholic Church -- or actually, to re-open it. This is a fascinating movement that offers a good case study for Anglicans and other Christians as we continue to discern together how to be faithful to his leading in our time.

Today we hear from Dr. Phyllis Zagano. Phyllis is an internationally acclaimed Catholic scholar and lecturer on contemporary spirituality and women's issues in the Church. Her award-winning books include Holy Saturday: An Argument for the Restoration of the Female Diaconate in the Catholic ChurchWomen & Catholicism: Gender, Communion, and Authority; and Women: Icons of Christ.

Phyllis has also served as a member of the Papal Commission for the study of the diaconate of women and is the winner of two Fulbright awards. She holds a research appointment at Hofstra University.

Thanks for joining us today. And as you listen in, think of a woman in leadership you can support or pray for this week.

Read about Sister Priscilla Wright.

Purchase Phyllis Zagano's book, Women: Icons of Christ.

Give to the Living Church.

May 05, 202238:31
Landscape, Splendor, and Wendell Berry: A Conversation on Crisis and Hope

Landscape, Splendor, and Wendell Berry: A Conversation on Crisis and Hope

A very Happy feast of Easter to all of you podcast listeners. To all of our Western listeners, he is risen! And to many of our Eastern listeners, a blessed Holy Week to you, and a very happy Pascha when it comes!

Something else that's happening this week: Friday, April 22, is Earth Day. Our celebration of the Lord's Passion and victory over death coincides with Earth Day, so in light of the upcoming Lambeth focus on creation, and the persistent calls to mutual, loving sacrifice, prayer, and stewardship of the earth from Archbishop Justin, Presiding Bishop Michael, Pope Francis, and Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, among other local leaders around the world, we are recognizing this Easter/Earth day coincidence this week in a couple of ways.

First, in our Daily Devotional. The Living Church puts out a free online devotional every day. This week our author is the Rev. Dr. Rachel Mash, Environmental Coordinator of the Anglican Church of Southern Africa. She was also a guest on podcast episode #60, Green Anglicans: An Introduction. She's been reflecting on the connection between Easter and creation this week. You can sign up for the Daily Devotional here, or find them at

We're also going to plunge deep into the topic of creation and Christianity on today's episode, in conversation with a good friend of the Living Church, the Rev. Canon Dr. Mark Clavier.

Mark is Residentiary Canon of Brecon Cathedral in Wales where he also directs Convivium, an initiative to foster a vision of the Church that stands apart from consumerism. He is a regular contributor to BBC Radio Wales and The Living Church and spends a lot of his free time walking. His most recent book is A Pilgrimage of Paradoxes: A Backpacker’s Encounters with God and Nature.

Mark and his wife, historian Dr. Sarah Ward Clavier, have been on our show before. (As have their dogs, Humphrey and Cuthbert: they provided the howling sound effects for our 2021 Halloween episode.) I brought Mark on today because his work as a pastor, and even his conversion as a Christian, has had so much to do with the earth -- especially landscapes, and preserving and loving local environments. So much of his call has been wrapped up in watching God reveal his character through the woods of South Carolina, the Blue Ridge Mountains of Appalachia, and then the Brecon Beacons and byways of Wales. Today we'll talk about his travels, being bowled over by God's glory, medieval bestiaries, living as Christians in climate apocalypse, and of course, Wendell Berry.

And another coincidence: Monday, April 25, will be the feast of St. Mark. So let's get on with our conversation with our own friend, Mark, and listen together for God's healing word to our world.

Sign up for our Daily Devotional.

Check out Mark Clavier's latest book.

Give to the Living Church.

Apr 21, 202247:18
Can the Church Lead Today?: Learning from the Vatican

Can the Church Lead Today?: Learning from the Vatican

Lately you may have heard about Pope Francis taking some heat for not being more severe and explicit with Vladimir Putin in denouncing Russian aggression against Ukraine. Yesterday evening I was taking a walk in my neighborhood listening to a recent episode of The Commonweal Podcast. And in it, New Yorker staff writer Paul Elie points out that as we wait to see how the pope and other church leaders will respond to this situation in Ukraine, we are also in a time when so many things about the papacy, church leadership, how they function on the world stage is unprecedented. Whatever's happened in the past, we really don't know what's possible now in terms of Christian witness and hope. Pretty good stuff to ponder in time for the Lambeth Conference.

Pope Francis has undoubtedly been addressing some of the biggest issues of our time in some very public ways, notably with Laudato Si' and Fratelli Tutti, and today we're getting an inside look into the "What now?", into how the Vatican is addressing this big vision for human flourishing, in cooperation with other Christians.

For this insider look I had the pleasure of chatting with Alessio Pecorario. Alessio is the Coordinator of the Security Task Force of the Vatican COVID-19 Commission and a senior official of the Vatican’s Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development, which includes many areas of dialogue and oversight.

We discuss the importance of Christian witness in this moment, Christian unity even amid disagreement, Anglican vocations to unity and dialogue dovetailing with Catholic gifts, and the gift of the papacy to strengthen the influence of positive Christian leadership worldwide.

Now before I let you go here, I've been meaning to ask you, dear listener, for feedback about the podcast. How do you like it these days? This show is for invested Christian leaders like you. So what would you like to hear more of? What are you appreciating? What would you like from this that you don't currently have? If you have a comment or an idea, email me at I would love to hear from you.

And as always, if you enjoy the podcast, if you enjoy this episode, send it along to a friend.

And now, let's head to the heart of Rome, for a listening session on Christian leadership and care for our world. We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Learn more about the Laudato Si' Action Platform.

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Apr 07, 202240:41
The Art of Anglican Preaching (Which May Include John Howe and The Grateful Dead)

The Art of Anglican Preaching (Which May Include John Howe and The Grateful Dead)

How was I to know that a conversation on the art of Anglican preaching would take me to talking about T.D. Jakes and The Grateful Dead? Well, I guess when you're talking to the Rev. Jacob Smith, it's bound to happen.

We're talking about the art and craft of preaching today, thinking about beginners to the craft, but also thinking about those who have been at it for a long time, and what it might take to get out of the rut of old habits, re-energize your imagination, and even let yourself get nervous behind the pulpit again, if you haven't felt that way in a while. What is a good sermon, anyway? And how much does it really matter if the liturgy and the Eucharist take center stage? What can bad preaching do? And what does preaching have in common with stand-up comedy and tennis?

Apart from tips for good preaching or better preaching, we've got some edifying stories of embarrassing mistakes to learn from, and forays into the realm of pop culture. We also survey a few other preaching styles throughout history that may not be familiar, or even comfortable, but we can definitely learn from, from Jonathan Edwards to televangelists.

Fr. Jacob was born on the Navajo Reservation and was raised in Yuma, Arizona. As an Episcopal priest he initially served in the Diocese of San Diego, and he's been at the Parish of Calvary-St. George's in NYC in various roles for 15 years. His wife, Melina, by the way, publishes a church curriculum for children you should check out called Storymakers. And in part of his free time, when he's not watching a favorite show and gleaning sermon illustrations, Jacob is lovingly working on the Same Old Song preaching podcast with fellow priest Aaron Zimmerman.

Now get out your Moleskine journal and your favorite pen and join us as we make some insightful and fun notes on preaching! We hope you enjoy the conversation.

LEARN MORE about our conference in Oklahoma City, Love's Redeeming Work: Discovering the Anglican Tradition

Storymakers curriculum

Same Old Song podcast

Mar 24, 202232:41
Welcoming Refugees

Welcoming Refugees

Imagine you've just been dropped in the middle of a city center. You're stepping off the bus in a place you've never been, hundreds of miles from home, where no one speaks your language. You've been dropped there with your mom, your dad, maybe your in-laws, your kids, and you have no money, no papers. Now, figure out how to survive.

This is how Mother Samira Page helps people put themselves in the shoes of a refugee. She says, even when you arrive in a place that's safer than what you left, you feel like you've been hit in the head. But now you've got to think, and act, and do it fast.

How can Christians, of all types, all political persuasions, from different traditions and backgrounds, respond together faithfully to refugee neighbors? What types of welcome do refugees need, very practically speaking? And what are some steps to take from fear and uncertainty about refugees to understanding and human warmth?

The original title of today's episode was "Refugee Pastor," not only because today's guest is a pastor among refugees, but also because she has been one herself. From receiving a visit from the Virgin Mary, to a house search in Iran, to a dangerous Rio Grande crossing, the Rev. Dr. Samira Izadi Page has quite a story to tell.

Samira is an Episcopal priest and the founder and executive director of Gateway of Grace, an outreach ministry to refugees, many of whom are survivors of severe trauma. Her organization helps refugees start over with donations, baby showers, job assistance, and language lessons. Gateway also trains volunteers and churches to adopt refugee families, the point where friendships form and integration begins.

She is the author of Who Is My Neighbor? and co-author and co-editor of No Longer Strangers: Transforming Evangelism with Immigrant Communities.

This really was an eye-opening conversation for me. There's so much here that goes behind the curtain, to the stories, hopes, and needs of people forced to run away from home, and reveals the miraculous presence of God in the lives of people who have lost everything, as well as in the lives of those who help them to rebuild.

Final note: This was recorded before the Russian attacks in Ukraine, but of course we hope you have Ukranian refugees in mind as well as you listen.

More About Gateway of Grace Refugee Ministry

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Living Church Institute Calendar & Events

Mar 11, 202248:10
Dispatch from Rome / Speciale da Roma!
Feb 24, 202235:51
Fresh Words on John

Fresh Words on John

In the beginning was the Word. For 2,000 years, theologians, pastors, philosophers, Christians in their devotional time, have been pondering this opening to the Gospel of John. Just the first six words, and no one has exhausted its meaning. Who is Jesus? Who is the Father? Who is the Spirit? What are they doing with us?

Just the first six words. Well, like it says at the very end of John, the world couldn't hold all the books written about Jesus if we recorded all he did and said. So no wonder it's taken theologian David Ford 20 years to write a commentary on the Gospel of John. Fellow theologian and Episcopal priest Wes Hill joins us to interview David on this brand-new commentary and dive deep into this unique gospel.

Why does super-abundance saturate the stories and images of John? Why is it full of Old Testament Easter eggs? Why are Christian theological traditions obsessed with John in particular? Where did John's passion for Christian unity come from? And why is John's prologue like a bucket? Tune in and find out.

Prof. David F. Ford is Regius Professor of Divinity Emeritus at the University of Cambridge and a Fellow of Selwyn College. He's written many books. Our listeners may be particularly interested in The Shape of Living and The Drama of Living, a rich blend of theology and spirituality, practical reflection, and poetry. You might also pick up Theology: A Very Short Introduction from the Oxford University Press Very Short Introduction series, or The Future of Christian Theology. David is also deeply involved in inter-faith relations.

Purchase David's new book, The Gospel of John: A Theological Commentary

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Feb 10, 202244:22
Bearing Witness in 200 Pulpits

Bearing Witness in 200 Pulpits

In 2023, Virginia Theological Seminary will be celebrating its bicentennial. (Congratulations, VTS, on 200 years!) As part of preparing for that celebration, they've cooked up an interesting project. Send a preacher all around the world to preach in 200 pulpits. And along the way, as you're preaching and teaching, see what you can see, learn what you can learn. What kind of survey do you get of the state of the church that way?

Today we'll talk with the very man who's been finding this out, the Rev. Dr. Mark Andrew Jefferson.

Mark is Assistant Professor of Homiletics and the Associate Director of the Deep Calls to Deep Preaching Program at VTS. He has also taught at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and Candler School of Theology at Emory. He has been a director of Christian education, and his academic work focuses on critical engagement of the American social imagination and African American socio-political enfranchisement and empowerment. He has an upcoming book, tentatively titled, The Mis-education of the African American Preacher. He is an internationally respected preacher and teacher of preachers.

We talk about this preaching project, the importance of history and place, Christian unity, preaching in Cape Town after the death of Archbishop Tutu, and what revival might be looking like.

Most of us are ministering week by week in a local parish, getting that intimate, zoomed-in view of what God is doing here, in this spot. But what do we get from a bird's eye view? What do you see particularly when you're a guest preacher?

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Feb 01, 202235:58
Missional Liturgy

Missional Liturgy

Happy new year, and happy Epiphany!

While we're in this time of Epiphany, we've cooked up a few episodes of the podcast that have to do with recovering and sharing the "aha!" of what God has shown us in his Son Jesus. What does this, God's mission, look like in different contexts, among seekers and people of other faiths or none, as well as among the long-ago baptized and catechized?

And how do we as Christians and churchgoers, shaped by that Epiphany light,  experience it afresh, even after long habituation?

What we've got in store for you today is the latest cutting-edge idea guaranteed to optimize discipleship and mission, involving a technology you barely know about, and all for the low price of... Just kidding. Today we're going to talk about liturgy. Something you've already got and know well. With God's help, that already-familiar Church toolkit may be all you need to share the gospel in a powerful way.

My guest today is the Rev. Dr. Shawn McCain. He is an Anglican priest and church planter and the founding rector of Resurrection Anglican Church in South Austin, Texas. Before that, he helped plant Redeemer Anglican Church in Santa Cruz, Calif. He has also been a computer engineer at Hewlett Packard. And he's currently working on his first book. His bread and butter is liturgy as mission.

Just like the Church seasons teach us, getting re-inspired by what we already have, by what we already know, can teach us so powerfully to seek out what God still has in store.

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Jan 13, 202245:23
Bishops' Roundtable — Walking Together: What Is Anglican Synodality?

Bishops' Roundtable — Walking Together: What Is Anglican Synodality?

Happy Advent, folks. Almost, almost Merry Christmas. Here's a present for you.

Today’s episode has its origins in the most recent meeting of the Living Church Foundation.  The Living Church Foundation is a diverse and dynamic group of leaders from around the Communion. They’re parish priests, business people, archbishops, prayer warriors, moms and dads, educators, organizers. And they're all dedicated to friendship, to the thriving of the Communion, and to the visible unity of the Church of God.

So yes, after we discussed the budget and voted on some stuff, we moved to a discussion of synodality—what it means to walk together as Christians, as Anglicans in our time. And this is the Christmas present we have for you today.

Four of our bishops on the Foundation gave us a few words: the Rt. Rev. Rowan Williams joined us from Wales, the Rt. Rev. Samy Shehata from Egypt, the Rt. Rev. Joseph Wandera from Kenya, and the Rt. Rev. John Bauerschmidt from Nashville. The conversation was rich, nuanced, patient, and deeply encouraging.

Some of the presentation is almost devotional, some gets into the nitty-gritty of the history and current strategies aimed at synodality globally. Our Executive Director, Christopher Wells, makes some opening remarks to kick us off and introduces each of our speakers.

We hope you enjoy the conversation.

Make a Christmas gift to the Living Church! 🎁

Email Dr. Christopher Wells for information about planned gifts, gifts of stock, and giving to our Endowment.

Dec 16, 202101:03:55
Anglican Adventures in Evangelism

Anglican Adventures in Evangelism

Bold, confident, yet natural. No, we are not talking about makeup, furniture, or dating advice. We're talking about evangelism.

There's seems to be this golden combination of boldness, confidence, yet naturalness, humanity, humility, simplicity, that makes for really effective evangelism, no matter the personality type or tradition a Christian is formed in. This kind of evangelism does not require you to either have a degree in theology or to apply the kind of cringe-worthy strategies you wouldn't want to be on receiving end of.

So what makes for confident, bold, but really natural evangelism? The kind that doesn't require that you turn into someone else, but does require that, at least once in a while, you get out of your comfort zone?

And what's the difference between an evangelistic vocation and the witness all Christians are called to?

We'll hear more about all this today from two experts in the field:

Canon J John is a Church of England priest and evangelist with over 40 years' experience. J John runs an organization called Philo Trust, which equips and mentors Christians to be more effective evangelists from where they are.

Guiding the conversation is Canon Carrie Boren Headington. Carrie is canon for evangelism for the Diocese of Dallas and founder of the Good News Initiative. She is also consulting evangelist for revivals for the Presiding Bishop of the Episcopal Church and adjunct professor of evangelism at Fuller Seminary.

Now sit back, relax, but definitely stay alert. You hear a challenge today. It's a good one.

Learn more about J John

Learn more about Carrie Headington

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Dec 02, 202139:26
Atonement: East and West

Atonement: East and West

Encountering Orthodoxy can feel, to Westerners, like a real re-orientation (pardon the pun) of their understanding of Christianity. A supposed point of departure, even contention, between East and West has traditionally been in their theologies of salvation—specifically in the atonement. What has Christ done for us? That question shapes entire lives, entire cultures.

In his book Deification Through the Cross: An Eastern Christian Theology of Salvation, the Rev. Dr. Khaled Anatolios lays out the premise that, the deeper you go into Christian tradition, into the doctrine of salvation—which is to say, into the accounts of faithful Christians' exploration of what Jesus has done for them—the more you find a unified doctrine of salvation that East and West fully share and embrace.

We've brought on three guests today for a conversation about just this question.

Our first guest is Dr. Marcus Plested. Marcus is Henri de Lubac Chair in Theology at Marquette University, and has taught, lectured, and published widely in patristic, Byzantine, and modern Orthodox theology. He is the author of two books to date: The Macarian Legacy: The Place of Macarius-Symeon in the Eastern Christian Tradition and Orthodox Readings of Aquinas. He also taught at the Institute for Orthodox Christian Studies in Cambridge for 13 years.

Dr. Joshua McManaway is our other guest. Josh is visiting assistant professor of the practice in the theology department at the University of Notre Dame. His research focuses principally on early and Medieval Christianity.

Our third guest and moderator is Dr. Timothy O'Malley. Tim is the director of education at the McGrath Institute for Church Life and academic director of the Notre Dame Center for Liturgy. He specializes in liturgical-sacramental theology, marriage and family, catechesis, and spirituality.

Now strap on your knapsacks for another ecumenical adventure. Are you bringing along a rosary, or a prayer rope?

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Nov 18, 202141:47
Campus Ministry and Gen Z

Campus Ministry and Gen Z

You may have heard this, or you may have guessed, but the Living Church has two offices these days. One of course is in Milwaukee, the historical home base of our magazine. And now we've also got a home for the Living Church Institute, in Dallas, Texas.

And the location of our office building fascinates me. Right now I'm looking out onto crepe myrtle trees, a library, bike racks, and students -- walking to class, going to grab coffee. We're right on the edge of Southern Methodist University's campus. Last year it was not like this. It was sort of eerily quiet. No traffic jams at lunchtime or rush hour. But now all the students are back.  I'm watching all these young people go by, slouching under their backpacks, hunched over their phones, talking with friends, and I'm thinking, "What are your lives like? Have you heard the gospel? Do you know the riches of the Church? And how can you scroll Instagram while walking?"

Today we're going to have a conversation about students, student ministry, returning to campus, and what Episcopal ministry to Gen Z can look like, particularly post-pandemic.

I invited the very generous Rev. Valerie Mayo to join me today and enlighten me about what's going on in her neck of the woods. Valerie is Campus Minister and Urban Missioner for the Episcopal Diocese of Kentucky, and she is at the University of Louisville, where she serves in Episcopal-Lutheran Campus ministry. She's also the mother of two Gen Z young folks. It was fascinating to hear what's going on where she is, and how she sees grace and presence as some of the most powerful ministry we can offer to students right now.

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Nov 04, 202134:51
All Hallow's Eve: The Tell-Tale Will

All Hallow's Eve: The Tell-Tale Will

Happy All Hallow's Eve and All Saints Day, dear listeners! (Or close enough.) If you think this will be your typical episode, you're dead wrong. Today we're dealing with grave matter on The Living Church Podcast.

Literally, we are talking about graves, churchyards, clergy wills from the 17th and 18th centuries in Wales, and some fascinating social and religious history that these wills unearth. What does it mean if a dying man leaves his wife a featherbed? What is an apostle spoon? How did poverty, wealth, and marriage prohibitions affect clergy life? Why did so many people give away cheese in their wills?

This scary-cool history conversation is courtesy of Dr. Sarah Ward Clavier. Sarah is senior lecturer in early modern history at the University of the West of England, Bristol. She has a book out called Royalism, Religion, and Revolution: Wales, 1640-1688.

Sarah mentions the English Restoration and Interregnum in our episode today. Quick definition of these for those who don't know:

When King Charles I was executed in 1649, England had no king. Britain was run by various councils, assemblies, and parliaments until Charles II took the throne in 1660. Thus began the Restoration.

Our episode opens today with amazing organ work by Julian Petrallia, organ scholar at Incarnation Episocpal Church in Dallas, Texas. And at the end of the episode, you'll get to hear Julian play in full Prelude in C Minor, by Bach, BWV 546.

Shake out your church history trick-or-treat bag and open it wide. We promise more treats than tricks today!

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Oct 21, 202140:10
Can Christians Cooperate on the Environment?

Can Christians Cooperate on the Environment?

There's been some talk that American mainline Protestants are starting to outpace American Evangelicals in church growth. The numbers may reflect real growth in mainline churches; they may also, according to the Public Religion Research Institute, reflect white evangelicals, who might have previously called themselves evangelical, shying away from the label these days; or maybe both. Anglicanism can contain both of these groups, as well as muddle the boundaries between them, and mix in other categories as well. But why has there been such energy behind this statistic?

The point is, even though reality is a lot more complex, we often think of there being, in a given cultural context, two major groups of Christians at odds with each other: Catholic vs. Protestant, mainline vs. evangelical, conservative vs. liberal/progressive. And the distinctions split off, become exceedingly fine, etc., etc. How they manifest may range from good-natured jokes about each other to ignoring or deploring the other's existence. But working together, much less worshipping together, can be messy.

So where am I going with this? Well, if you know anything about the Living Church, and if you know that this episode is about ministry, climate, and creation care, asking questions about divisions in the body of Christ should not come as too much of a surprise.

Fortunately, today we've got a great conversation partner. Dr. Mark Purcell is the Executive Director of A Rocha USA, a Christian conservation organization in the international A Rocha network. (We'll talk more about who they are in the episode.) Mark and I dig into the work of climate and creation care from the perspective of a Christian organizer who works with Christians across the theological and denominational spectrum, in an organization with evangelical roots. We'll talk today about what they do, but also about how Mark has learned to communicate and build relationships cross-traditionally, and how other Christian leaders from mainline or liturgical perspectives can build connections over creation care with evangelical and "non-liturgical" Christian leaders. You want ecumenical work? You want climate change action? Mark says, start with your neighbors.

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Oct 07, 202135:39
Trauma, Ministry, and Healing
Sep 23, 202136:51
Green Anglicans: An Introduction

Green Anglicans: An Introduction

As we're looking toward Lambeth 2022 (Lord willing), we all know one of the biggest issues on Archbishop Justin's mind, one of the biggest topics we'll be addressing: climate change.

With this in mind, we're working here at the podcast on producing a series of interviews with organizers, artists, scientists, scholars, and pastors to talk about climate urgency, creation, and how protecting and stewarding it intersects with our various leadership roles and our vocations as Christians.

Today we'll hear from the Rev. Dr. Rachel Mash. Rachel is the environmental Coordinator of the Anglican Church of Southern Africa. She works with the Green Anglicans Movement, which we'll be discussing today. She is also the secretary to the Anglican Communion Environmental Network and sits on the steering group of the Season of Creation group.

Our conversation today concentrates on how we go from hearing and knowing about climate change to getting the issues in our heart space (not always an easy leap), how Christians are responding in various ways around the globe, and how a deeper care for creation might be integrated into devotional practices, liturgy, and Christian rites of passage. We also talk about grounding ecological action in Scripture, and I pose to Rachel some questions many of us may be asking: like when does minute attention to single use plastics and planting trees distract from the church's main mission to preach the gospel? Does it have to?

Check out Green Anglicans

Check out the Anglican Communion Environmental Network

Learn more about the ecumenical Season of Creation

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Sep 09, 202135:03
St. John Chrysostom's Back-to-School Advice
Aug 26, 202120:17
Small Groups: Why and How

Small Groups: Why and How

Small groups are a growth edge for a lot of us. Even those committed to the church and leadership. And maybe especially for those in liturgical contexts. We may be tempted to think that Sunday morning, and maybe some volunteer work thrown in there, is all we need for spiritual flourishing. But all Christians need community, and whether small groups particularly work for us or not, we have to seek out and stick with others who walk with us along the path, turning the wedding feast of Sunday into the marriage of the everyday habits and transformations that are the Christian life.

Small groups are a time-tested way of building that community, and they're seeing something of a revival in recent days. They're also incredibly adaptable to different churches and cultures. "Hey, the 90s called and they want their small groups back." That's not the way it needs to be.
Today we're going to talk to two people who have successfully implemented small group ministries in their very different church contexts and hear how small group ministry can be done, what it contributes particularly to Anglican and Episcopal contexts, how small groups relate to church growth, how to avoid cliques in small parishes and disconnection in large ones, and other expert advice on leading and implementing this model of discipleship in your parish.

Our guests today are Brooke Holt and the Rev. Canon Robert Sihubwa.

Brooke is a lay leader at St. John the Divine Episcopal Church in Houston Texas, and executive director of Bible Study Media, a small group curriculum company. Her passion is teaching God's Word and equipping believers to build the Kingdom. She also ministers through healing prayer and Holy Yoga. She has seen small groups transform community in her parish, even during the pandemic.

Fr. Robert is rector of St. Peter's Anglican Church in Lusaka, Zambia. He also serves as the Anglican Province of Central Africa's youth and children ministry leader. He is a preacher, evangelist, and Christian educator, and hosts a radio show on Radio Christian Voice, an independent station in Lusaka. He also leads the discipleship and missions team for the Anglican Communion part of a global FB group, Jesus Shaped Life. And he has used small groups to support other discipleship efforts in his parish, growing from 200 average Sunday attendance to over 1,000 in a few years.
Here are some resources Fr. Robert and Brooke mention in our conversation today:

Bible Study Media (resource Brooke mentions)
Building Intentional Small Groups (resource Fr. Robert mentions)
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Aug 13, 202141:05
Movies and Ministry: Finding God in the Art of Filmmaking
Aug 03, 202132:42
Spirit-Filled Economics: Society, Pentecost, and Money

Spirit-Filled Economics: Society, Pentecost, and Money

What hath Pentecost to do with Wall Street?  Or, for that matter, what do the drudgery and stress of balancing checkbooks, checking spreadsheets, and making financial decisions, in your parish, diocese, or at home, have to do with the Holy Spirit's creative, enlivening presence? As Christians we often do have an idea of how our personal finances are or at least should be guided by prudence, simplicity, justice. Dave Ramsey. Got it. But how do our economic lives as human beings, even on a national or international level, relate to the revelation of Jesus Christ, or to the life and vocation God has given to the Church? Is it even possible to have such a vision, or to do anything about it?

We've got a conversation today with guests who bring two different and very unique perspectives to the table, to help us get a theological vision for God's purpose for our common life together and how economics and the Christian life might intersect.

Our first guest is Dr. Daniela Augustine. Daniela is currently Reader in World Christianity and Pentecostal Studies at the University of Birmingham UK, with a previous background in economics. Her focus is in ethics and public theology and engaging Eastern Orthodox theology in conversation with Pentecostal theology, especially in liturgy, theosis, and the event of Pentecost as a paradigm for social transformation. Her latest book is The Spirit and the Common Good: Shared Flourishing in the Image of God.

Our second guest is The Rev. Dr. Nathan McLellan. Nathan worked as an economist in the New Zealand Treasury for over six years before a hunger for theological education led him to a Ph.D. in Christian ethics. He is currently CEO and Teaching Fellow at Venn Foundation, an education institution helping Christians explore the depths and riches of the Christian tradition for the good of their homes, workplaces, churches, and communities in New Zealand. He is passionate about helping others deepen their integration of faith and life, especially in the areas of economics, business, and leadership.

The conversation is moderated by Dr. Dallas Gingles. Dallas is the Site Director of the Houston-Galveston Extension Program of Perkins School of Theology, Southern Methodist University, where he teaches courses in moral theology, systematic theology, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and bioethics. His current work includes a co-edited volume on the future of Christian realism.

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Jul 15, 202143:41
Multicultural Church: What Can Toronto Teach Us?

Multicultural Church: What Can Toronto Teach Us?

We are heading to Toronto!

Toronto, Ontario is a center of multinational life, education, commerce, the arts, and food. It's also full of thriving churches.

How do urban and rural Canadian Christians thrive? Where is the church growing, and why? And what can the rest of us learn from what Anglicans in Toronto are learning about ministry, multiculturalism, and community?

Today I speak with the Rt. Rev. Jenny Andison and the Rev. Dr. Jeff Boldt about these questions and more. They give me a little taste of life in this fascinating city, and a glimpse at how they've experienced immigration, ethnic diversity, and Indigenous life building up the body of Christ.

The Rt. Rev. Jenny Andison is rector at St. Paul's Bloor St in Toronto. She is the former area bishop of York-Credit Valley in the Diocese of Toronto and has served in Toronto for many years. Bishop Jenny has also served in the Diocese of London (UK), and the Diocese of Tokyo.

The Rev. Dr. Jeff Boldt serves as a priest in the diocese of Toronto. Jeff grew up as a Mennonite and has a previous career as an animator. Jeff has contributed to several volumes of Anglican theology, most recently in The Bible and the Prayer Book Tradition.

Just a note, I want to mention that we recorded this episode before the horrifying news broke, about the unmarked graves of hundreds of Indigenous children found on the grounds of former church-run schools in British Columbia and Saskatchewan. Though honoring multiethnicity and a growing church is where our conversation today will focus, we also acknowledge the history in North America, a history shared by Canada and the U.S., not only of ethnic tensions that naturally arise in diverse contexts, but of terrible abuses within the Church, a history that still cries out for repentance and healing. Lord, have mercy.

Thanks for joining us for this conversation. Shoulder your knapsack. And Let's head to Toronto.

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Jul 01, 202139:58
How Should We Approach "Hybrid Church"? Pt. 2 with Father John Mason Lock

How Should We Approach "Hybrid Church"? Pt. 2 with Father John Mason Lock

Live streaming and worship. Zoom and Bible study. Outreach and TikTok. For the average congregation, we used to think, never any of these twains shall meet. Now, if you work at a church, you'd better be on your iPhone and Facebook game. And, if you're ordained, you had better know how to use a tripod.


A couple of weeks ago we started a series on "Hybrid church." What is hybrid church, should we embrace it, is it theologically sound in part or in whole, who seems to be responding to it? Which technologies might work best for certain contexts, and how?

Today we talk to someone whose journey might be helpful to other digital ministry skeptics.

The Rev. John Mason Lock is rector of Trinity Episcopal Church in Red Bank, New Jersey, and he is passionately committed to traditional Anglican worship and liturgy, with a particular respect for the 1662 Book of Common Prayer.

And this is his story, his words of advice for rectors and other church leaders on how and why to adopt digital techniques for ministry today. And we also get his theological take on why it might be good still to keep the side-eye on all this hybrid stuff, so our tendency to avoid the challenges of embodied experience doesn't get out of control.

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Jun 17, 202138:22
Bonus Episode: Rowan Williams and John Cavadini on "Preaching the Gospel of John with Saint Augustine"

Bonus Episode: Rowan Williams and John Cavadini on "Preaching the Gospel of John with Saint Augustine"

Preachers, teachers, and Christians across the globe have found the passionate, pastoral, and psychologically astute writings of St. Augustine of Hippo fresh and relevant century after century. New City Press asked themselves, um, why hasn't anyone produced a really rock star translation of all of Augustine's sermons in English? And of course, being a publishing company, they did something about it.

Their latest in this series is a new translation of St. Augustine's Homilies on the Gospel of John. (See link below.)

June 8 TCLI co-hosted a master class and live Q+A session with Rowan Williams and Augustine scholar John Cavadini, focusing specifically on Augustine as a preacher, what we can learn as preachers from him, and on his homilies on John 6.

Today we're pleased to present the audio of this master class to you.

Our moderator is the Rev. Dr. Paul Kolbet. he is the author of a book on Augustine’s preaching, Augustine and the Cure of Souls: Revising a Classical Ideal. He is also Lecturer in the History of Christianity at Yale Divinity School, Co-Chair of the Augustine and Augustinianisms Group of the American Academy of Religion, and Interim Rector of All Saints’ Episcopal Church in Chelmsford, Mass.

Our first guest is Dr. John C. Cavadini, Professor of Theology at Notre Dame, where he also serves as McGrath-Cavadini Director of the McGrath Institute for Church Life. He specializes in patristic theology and in its early medieval reception. He has served a five-year term on the International Theological Commission (appointed by Pope Benedict the 16th) and received the Monika K. Hellwig Award for Outstanding Contributions to Catholic Intellectual Life.

Our second guest is the Most Rev. Dr. Rowan Williams. He served as Archbishop of Canterbury from 2002 to 2012, and then as Master of Magdalene College, Cambridge until 2020.  He has published numerous books on theology and spirituality, including On Augustine (2016) and Christ the Heart of Creation (2018). A new volume of Collected Poems will be published later this year.

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Jun 08, 202101:45:54
Failure and the Holy Ghost with Ephraim Radner and Wesley Hill

Failure and the Holy Ghost with Ephraim Radner and Wesley Hill

In the words of the old Pentecost hymn, where does "the Holy Spirit make a dwelling"? This is the question of our episode today.
The Spirit is the person of the Trinity who conceives and animates the flesh of Christ and his body, the Church. How are these realities related, and how do we recognize them?

In 1998, the Rev. Dr. Ephraim Radner, professor of historical theology at Wycliffe College, published a book called The End of the Church, a spicy title that refers to the egregious reality of disunity and failure in Christ's body. Given that, the book asks, doesn't death in the body indicate the Spirit's absence?

In 2019, Dr. Radner published another book on what he sees as our contemporary misreadings and misunderstandings of the Spirit's work in the world and our lives, and that book is called A Profound Ignorance: Modern Pneumatology and Its Anti-Modern Redemption.

Are we given the gift of the Holy Spirit in order to fix, or even alleviate, the world's problems and sufferings?

How do we know what the Holy Spirit is up to, when faced with vague or conflicting claims of the Spirit's work?

Where is the Holy Spirit in our failure?

The Rev Dr. Wesley Hill and I sat down for a conversation with the Rev. Dr. Ephraim Radner about just these questions. We were delighted and challenged. Enjoy listening in!

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Jun 03, 202135:16
How Should We Approach "Hybrid Church"? Pt. 1 with Father Tim Schenck
May 20, 202139:40