Chapel Probation
By Scott Okamoto
Chapel ProbationJun 06, 2023
Chapel Probation s3- Peter Fenton- From Wheaton to Off-Broadway
Peter Fenton is a young man just 6 years out of college at Wheaton, and he is killing it. His creative output for this year alone is incredible, and his past life as an evangelical has served to fuel his creative energy. He's got a film he produced making the festival rounds, and his play, Abandon All Hope is set to premier at the Rougue Theater Festival Off-Broadway this Saturday night. A lot has happened in a short amount of time for Peter professionally and personally. His faith, his sexuality, and his career path have all been affected by his deconstruction, and a lot of it can be traced back to his time at Wheaton.
The bonus segment this week is a minor rant from Scott about the Texas battle to mandate a 10 Commandments in every public school classroom. As someone who loves public schools and once taught in them, myself, I have some thoughts. Question: can you list all 10 Commandments? I didn't think so. UPDATE: thankfully Texas Bill 1515, which sailed through the Texas senate, stalled in the House and didn't get a vote before the deadline. You can read about it here.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
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Asian-American-Apostate- Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University is available now!
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, Azeem Kahn, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
Join the Chapel Probation Patreon to support Scott and for bonus content.
Join the Chapel Probation Facebook group to continue the conversations.
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You can subscribe to Scott's newsletter and learn more about the book, the blog, and performances at rscottokamoto.com
Chapel Probation s3- Marla Taviano: From Cedarville Fundamentalist to White Girl Learning
You've probably come across Marla Taviano on Instagram or Twitter where she posts as "White Girl Learning," a book-promoting persona that focuses on BIPOC writers and authors. In this episode, Marla talks about her early days as a dedicated evangelical Christian, blissfully unaware of the bigotry and oppression BIPOC people face and her experiences and relationships that helped her see the world as it is in all its beauty and tragedy. After some missionary work and a wrenching divorce, Marla now lives a joyous life elevating marginalized voices and celebrating a life of wonder.
Today's bonus segment is another Songs of My Deconstruction where I share my love for a band called, Rush. Because of the amazing musicality and heartfelt lyrics, Rush was part of my faith journey. They were also part of my deconstruction, as I saw the world through their eyes, musically and poetically. The video I mention in the segment can be seen here.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Join the Dauntless Media Discord for more conversation with all the podcast communities.
Asian-American-Apostate- Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University is available now!
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, Azeem Kahn, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
Join the Chapel Probation Patreon to support Scott and for bonus content.
Join the Chapel Probation Facebook group to continue the conversations.
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You can subscribe to Scott's newsletter and learn more about the book, the blog, and performances at rscottokamoto.com
Chapel Probation s3- Dr. Sara Moslener: Purity Culture Writer and Researcher
Dr. Sara Moslener was once a Pro-life, abstinence-only culture warrior who won awards for her fundamentalist activism, but she deconstructed and became one of the foremost researchers of purity culture and its harmful effects on society. From Calvin College to Claremont Graduate University, Dr. Moslener has become an academic force exposing the dangers of purity culture. Her first book, Virgin Nation: Sexual Purity and American Adolescence , put her on the radar of everyone interested in the creepy history of purity culture, and she has a new book coming out next year called, After Purity. She is an incredible speaker and conversationalist, and she is definitely funnier than Brad Onishi.
At the end of the episode, I give my plug for my book as part of AAPI Heritage Month and talk about how the audience of this podcast is revolutionary simply for listening to Chapel Probation.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Join the Dauntless Media Discord for more conversation with all the podcast communities.
Asian-American-Apostate- Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University is available now!
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, Azeem Kahn, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
Join the Chapel Probation Patreon to support Scott and for bonus content.
Join the Chapel Probation Facebook group to continue the conversations.
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You can subscribe to Scott's newsletter and learn more about the book, the blog, and performances at rscottokamoto.com
Chapel Probation s3- Jeff Karow: The Reluctuant Moody Grad
Jeff Karow took a stand against evangelical culture in the deep south, and it cost him dearly. Advocating for social justice alienated him from his community, his best friends, and his family. The episode starts out as another great, fun, look at an evangelical school, in this case Moody Chicago, but it ended up being a life-changing experience for both of us. No comedy or music segments in this episode, although I did record a parody song, which I apologize for to everyone except Ed Sheeran.
If you have a message for Jeff, send it to info@rscottokamoto.com. Let's send some encouragements his way. He's been through the wringer.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Join the Dauntless Media Discord for more conversation with all the podcast communities.
Asian-American-Apostate- Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University is available now!
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
Join the Chapel Probation Patreon to support Scott and for bonus content.
Join the Chapel Probation Facebook group to continue the conversations.
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You can subscribe to Scott's newsletter and learn more about the book, the blog, and performances at rscottokamoto.com
Chapel Probation s3- Dr. Julie Ingersoll: From Christian Reconstructionist to Religious Studies Professor
Dr. Julie Ingersoll is an expert fly fisher and fly fishing writer, but that's not why you're here. Dr. Ingersoll is also a researcher and scholar of religious studies, and she has been a leading voice in exposing American evangelicalism as a threat to democracy and a pluralistic society. Like me, she deconstructed decades ago, forging her own identity as a scholar and as a human outside of the confines of American christianity. Interestingly, she was once a part of the Christian Reconstructionist movement, one of the movements that influenced today's dominionist groups, including the New Apostolic Reformation. We eventually get to how fly fishing can heal our damaged psyches, but not before Dr. Ingersoll speaks some hard truths about how many branches of christianity harm us all today.
Buy Dr. Ingersoll's book, Building God's Kingdome: Inside the World of Christian Reconstruction.
Today's bonus is another segment of Songs of My Deconstruction at the end of the episode. Today we learn about Scott's 2nd guitar hero, Eddie Van Halen. Closing music of the segment written and performed by Scott Okamoto and Patricia Ja Lee.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Join the Dauntless Media Discord for more conversation with all the podcast communities.
Asian-American-Apostate- Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University is available now!
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
Join the Chapel Probation Patreon to support Scott and for bonus content.
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You can subscribe to Scott's newsletter and learn more about the book, the blog, and performances at rscottokamoto.com
Chapel Probation s3- Lily Rose Atherton- Lily is Winning- APU
Lily was a founding member of the Sisters 9, a group of writers, musicians, and artists, who carved out a space for themselves as free-thinkers devoted to lives filled with art and exploration. Naturally, she was an enigma at a place like APU, and she quickly deconstructed her faith, replacing it with a mission to bring uncensored art to the campus through zines and an open mic event called, "The Line." Clad in a dingy pink Bunny suit, she stood before the entire school during chapel and announced her event as a place to express unfiltered thoughts and expressions. Like me, she caught the attention of the school and had to answer for it all. But Lily began distancing herself from evangelical people and all faith, even fleeing SoCal when she graduated to live completely untethered from christianity in San Francisco. Dealing with her rough upbringing and religious trauma helped her become the person, the mom, and the artist she is today.
A couple of new components to Chapel Probation in this episode: a new sketch of a "children's" bible story program (1:11:30) about a terrifying story of Zipporah and Moses. My wife Geri and my son Owen helped out. And we have some bonus content at the end of the episode.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Join the Dauntless Media Discord for more conversation with all the podcast communities.
Asian-American-Apostate- Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University is available now!
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
Join the Chapel Probation Patreon to support Scott and for bonus content.
Join the Chapel Probation Facebook group to continue the conversations.
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You can subscribe to Scott's newsletter and learn more about the book, the blog, and performances at rscottokamoto.com
Chapel Probation s3 Chrissy Stroop
We're back with Season 3!
We start the season with someone who helped Scott get started in the deconstruction world, Dr. Chrissy Stroop. Everyone who listens to this podcast is likely familiar with Chrissy's work, but she joins us to talk about her educational experiences and how they shaped who she is today.
Dr. Stroop is a co-editor in the groundbreaking Empty the Pews anthology of stories of deconstruction.
Support Dr. Stroop by joining her Patreon here.
At the end of the episode is the debut of the Songs of My Deconstruction segment. We look at an obscure Queen song that catapulted Scott into puberty. The closing music of the segment was written and performed by Scott and Patricia Ja Lee.
Asian-American-Apostate- Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University is available now!
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Music by Scott Okamoto, and Jenyi
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Season 2 Wrap- Asbury Wins Chapel Probation!!!
Just a quick finale to an amazing season. Thank you to everyone who came on Chapel Probation and thank you to everyone who has tuned in.
Asian American Apostate: Losing Religion and Finding Myself at an Evangelical University is coming out soon, so stay tuned for pre-orders.
Apologies to Blake Chastain for this Moonlight moment where I gave him the Chapel Probation award, but I gotta give it to Asbury. Warning: Unpopular Opinion herein.
See everyone in Season 3 which should fire up in April!
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
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Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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S2.E34: After Hours with Gloria Beth Amodeo- Author of God's Ex-Girlfriend
Like me, Gloria Beth Amodeo went to a "normal" school for college. But also like me, she got caught up in an evangelical ministry on campus. Cru was once Campus Crusade for Christ, and Beth joined up to escape what she thought was the evil secular values of the school. There she was indoctrinated into purity culture and fundamentalist views of the bible and church. She compares her experience to those of my guests from the Inter Varstiy Christian Fellowship episode, and tells us about her new book, which is out now, God's Ex-Girlfriend.
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Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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S2.E33: Sex-Positive Valentine's Day with Hope and Nicole
It's Valentine's Day. Yay. Whatever.
The topic that I get asked to cover most is purity culture. And while many of the guests on Chapel Probation have mentioned sex and sexual experiences, almost all the stories get told as cautionary tales that result in punishment or guilt or shame. Not fun. Sex and sexuality should be a normal part of human development, but if you add evangelical culture to the mix, it gets toxic. We were taught to deny our sexuality and fetishize our virginity as some kind of mark of Jesus on our soul. So how about we just talk about sex and sexuality without the guilt and shame. No embarrassment, even for the less good experiences, and no shame for our desires and identities.
So, I brought S2.E1 guests, Hope and Nicole to help me tell stories and talk about sex. We had a blast, and we could have talked all night, but Nicole had a hot date with her husband, so we got a solid hour-plus of stories, observations, and claiming our sexuality.
Content Warning: Lots of frank, open talk of sex and sexual acts. Listener discretion is advised.
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Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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S2.E32- After Hours with Ariel Climer
Ariel has been a big supporter of Chapel Probation as a moderator for the Facebook group and the inspiration behind in-person events. She attended APU and is connected to A Scott and Mahrs Shoppman as a housemate in the famed Synchronicity LA house, which was an intentional community formed by some APU alumni. I wanted to hear Ariel's thoughts on the podcast and her own experiences at APU, so it's kind of a hybrid episode.
We want to hear your sexiest stories from christian or religious colleges and universities which we will feature in the upcoming anti-purity culture Valentines Day episode. You can send your story (which will be anonymous unless you want your name in it) to info@rscottokamoto.com. More info to come.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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S2.E31: Daveo Mathias- The Writer Who Lost Faith at APU
No, I'm not talking about me. I'm talking about Daveo Mathias, a talented writer and creative human who got hammered by APU's evangelical culture to the point where he stopped believing in God because of his time there. As a new freshman, Daveo got a story published in the prestigious and new at the time web site McSweeny's. And while that might have offered a young writer some serious writing cred at a normal university, for Daveo, it was just one in a list of sins he committed simply by being a thinking, living human. Like many others, he found his people, but he still feels the pain of being rejected by an intractable, unforgivable culture that demanded conformity of its White students.
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Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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S2.E30: After Hours with Meghan Crozier and Cortland Coffey- Thereafter Podcast on Chapel Probation
Meghan and Cortland of the Thereafter Podcast join me for a wild and fun conversation about sexual loopholes in Purity Culture, online communities, and how we navigate tricky subjects like purity culture and identity in life after evangelical faith. And we ask the question of the ages: Can people have sex before curfews on evangelical campuses? It's more complicated than you might think. Or not.
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Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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s2.E29: Brad Onishi- The Angry Asian Professor (APU)
Dr. Bradley Onishi is a man on the rise. His podcast, Straight White American Jesus, which he co-hosts with Dr. Daniel Miller, is one of the most popular shows in the politics and religion category. Brad's book, Preparing for War- The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism and What Comes Next is already a best-seller on Amazon during its presale days, and it's out today, January 3, 2023. It's a book that should be required reading to all who care about the state of this country.
We talk about Brad's time as a student at APU, and note how the white nationalist culture of the early 2000's grew into the nightmare of MAGA Nation. And we talk about our heritage as Japanese Americans and how evangelical culture made us ashamed of who we are. We're all good now, and learning and growing still, but it's tough looking back at what we once were.
We do settle a score from earlier this season when Blake Chastain and I called out Brad to outdo Blake's chapel probation story, so you can hear the results of the contest now. It was a close one, but I think I made the correct ruling. Let me know if you disagree.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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S2.E28: After Hours with David Morris- Psychology, Publishing, and Finding Writers Like Me
A lot of people have told me to just get my book published, as if that's something I could just do. Get an agent, find a publisher, bam. Book. But, no one I ever talked to, outside of my own friends and family, thought I could write a book worth reading. Until I met David Morris. First of all, how many male Asian American (much less Japanese American) authors of non-fiction can you think of? That pretty much tells you what the publishing world thinks of us. But David saw me and heard what I had to say. He saw value in both my voice and the stories I have to tell. Once I had David in my corner, I knew I could accomplish anything.
David, in addition to a couple decades in the religious publishing world, has a doctorate in Psychology, and he brings his unique perspectives to Chapel Probation After Hours to talk about the podcast and his thoughts on the evangelical world. I even get him to cuss.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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S2.E27: UPDATE: NOW GOES BY NOVA BRIGHT- The Trans Woman Warrior Forged in APU's Fires
I remember Chris as a thoughtful person who was often deep in thought when she was a student. The underground LGBTQIA club, Haven, was fairly new, and the school was now fully aware of its existence and activities. Chris was part of the first group of leaders, along with Liz Cirelli, to start openly challenging the school's hateful policies and advocating for the rights of queer students. This led to the school doing the unthinkable to Chris, which made crystal clear the values of evangelical culture. Thankfully, Chris is living a great life today, advocating for queer youth, and raising a family of her own.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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S2.E26: After Hours with Matt Kendziera The Author and Drummer ex-Pastor
Matt Kendziera is a writer, podcaster, and drummer who has lived an amazing life full of growth and change. And like all of us on Chapel Probation, he has had trouble with the evangelicals. But despite the hard times, Matt is a supremely positive person with a personality that draws people in, allowing them to tell their stories. His book, Bring it Home: The Adventure of Finding Yourself After Being Lost in Religion is out now, and it's a lovely read. You get a sense of nostalgia for childhood and youth, and you get Matt's story of experiencing various christian faiths before leaving most of it to create his own identity. There are many similarities to my own book in the themes, but readers of Matt's book will get a great sense of the midwest and the culture therein. And Matt's podcast, Chasing Goodness is an inspiring conversation between deep thinking people who have experienced a lot of life.
Matt reflects on his own Inter Varsity Christian Fellowship experience, and relates his life to the themes of Chapel Probation. A really great conversation.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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S2.E25: Brent Walmsley- The Man From Three Christian Schools Who Left the Faith (North Central, Bethel, and Fuller)
Brent Walmsley has attended 3 evangelical schools, so naturally, he is no longer evangelical. From the Assemblies of God North Central, Bethel, to Fuller Seminary, he deconstructed at each stop, leaving it all in 2016 when Trump became the face of evangelical christianity. Along the way, Brent disagreed with the evangelical treatment of women, LGBTQIA people, and BIPOC people, as the culture of christianity cemented itself into bigotry and hate. Today, Brent is a moderator of the Life After Facebook group which is dedicated to providing resources to ex-evangelicals, and he is committed to being a resource for people who want to get out of evangelical christianity. You can follow him on Tik Tok by clicking his name above.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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Bonus/Break Week- Behind the Scenes at Chapel Probation- Back with a real episode next week
I needed a little break this week as I finished up copy edits of the book and worked on the amazing Straight White American Jesus series about the New Apostolic Reformation with Brad Onishi and Matthew Taylor. I wrote the scary theme music and do the editing and mixing for them. Mostly I just needed a little breather after 20 straight weeks of putting out episodes. We'll be back next week with another real episode and a new After Hours segment.
This week I talk about the music behind Chapel Probation, shout out a few listeners, and ask the question: What should season 3 look/sound like? Have we decisively made the case against evangelical higher education? Certainly, there are lots more stories to tell, so we'll continue to tell them, but what other angles should we take? Let me know what you think.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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After Hours #5 Keiko Agena (Gilmore Girls) and Shin Kawasaki- Heroes of the Asian Kids at APU
Even as the show Gilmore Girls was winding down, Keiko Agena came to APU to participate in the first ever Asian club campus-wide event. Her husband, Shin Kawasaki came, too, joining several of our friends who came to support the Asian American students at APU. Keiko and Shin are two of my favorite people in the world, and they went on to come to APU for the next 6 years until I left. In this XL episode of After Hours, they reminisce about their memories of the events and the students, and they talk about some of the episodes of Chapel Probation. Shin's music has elevated this podcast for both seasons, and we get to hear him perform at a recent concert in Little Tokyo.
You can support Shin's music by purchasing it on Bandcamp here.
You can purchase Keiko's book, No Mistakes: A Perfect Workbook for Imperfect Artists here. And if you are interested in letter writing to encourage people to vote, check out Vote Forward, an organization Keiko has worked with for the past few elections.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Shin Kawasaki
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S2.E22: The Worst Place for a Black Woman- An APU Staff Story
This week we have our first staff person who worked at APU. My guest, a super cool Black woman who wishes to remain anonymous, worked at APU for 12 years and was beloved by students and her non-racist co-workers. But the culture of the staff at APU was ridiculously white supremacist and conservative, making most days at work unbearable. Anti-Blackness became the norm at places like APU in 2008 when Obama was first elected, and it rose to a fever pitch by the time Trump was elected. My guest endured so much racism, but she learned to push back before she finally left. The Black students had it bad at APU. The Black staff had it worse. Students were at least paying customers with some protections. There were no protections for staff like my guest today. She was literally told to take the opportunity to exercise forgiveness and grace when racist shit went down.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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After Hours #4 Mandy Capehart- Processing Grief
Mandy Capehart joined me to talk about her thoughts on Chapel Probation and share her approaches to helping people grieve. Her book, Restorative Grief, and podcast of the same name are great resources for anyone processing and living through grief. We talk about Mandy's thoughts about Ella's and Lina's episodes and how telling our stories helps us process trauma and develop our identities.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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S2.E20: Michael Smith- The Prof Who Thought it was an Academic Institution (APU)
Like some professors at evangelical schools, Michael Smith came to APU assuming he would be teaching at an academic institution. He quickly learned that the school was more concerned with teaching fundamentalist and conservative lifestyles than actual academic learning. Combined with the school's obsession with criminalizing sexuality and any faith traditions outside of evangelical christianity, Professor Smith struggled to find his footing. Faculty and administration seemed wary of his Episcopalian faith and status as a single man. Things got better when he got married, but the seeds of discontent were planted. Like so many other awesome profs, he left feeling disenchanted with both evangelical higher education and christianity in general.
The draconian treatment of LGBTQIA students, the twisted manner the school treated all sexuality, and the campus-wide internet filters which no one, not even professors, could circumvent ultimately showed Professor Smith that the school was a Sunday School first and an academic institution second.
This week's sketch features Hope and Nikki from the Biola episode that kicked off Season 2. Along with Scott's kids, Audrey and Owen, they parody the whole internet filter situation.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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After Hours #3 Jenny Yang- The Acclaimed Actor and Comedian Remembers...APU?
Before Jenny Yang became a big-time comedian and Buzzfeed sensation, before she became a writer for television, and before she was cast as one of the stars of The Brothers Sun, a Netflix dramedy starring Michelle Yeoh, Jenny was a brand new comic, looking for stage time. I had her perform at APU for the Asian club, APASO, and the head of Student Life liked her so much, he booked her for the big APU comedy night, giving Jenny her first full-length set of 45 minutes. Sure, APU was kinda pissed to later find out that Jenny was not, in fact, christian, but Jenny absolutely destroyed the audience. So much so, that I had an extra 5 or 6 students trying to crash my classes for the next few semester simply because of my association with her.
Jenny was always so supportive of my work at APU, giving her time and talents to the APASO group, singing with my band, and doing standup. So I brought her onto Chapel Probation After Hours to reminisce our days of slogging through evening 210 freeway traffic to help out the Asian kids at APU.
Chapel Probation is part of the Dauntless Media Collective
Music by Scott Okamoto, Jenyi, and Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford
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S2.E18: Janelle, Tim, Kevin, and Scott- "The Bad" Alumns from Inter-Varsity Christian Fellowship UCSD
Even though the 4 of us went to an actual "top-notch" university, UC San Diego, our involvement with Inter-Varstiy Christian Fellowship meant our faith was in constant action and activity. We didn't have to deal with a university-wide culture of racism, misogyny, and anti-LGBTQIA hatred, but we embedded ourselves in a clatch of moderately conservative christianity that served to tamp down significant parts of our identities and sexuality. For Tim and Kevin, their experiences as closeted gay men added one more layer of shame, fear, and pain. Even still we were leaders in IVCF. Kevin was even a staff person for 5 years. We lived our faiths in "radical" ways before we all deconstructed to varying degrees of faith and agnosticism.
It is this experience as the best kind of christian in an academic and scientific setting that gave me (in my mind) the authority and the cred to teach at APU, even after I no longer believed in God. And even though we at UC San Diego got incredible educations, we did not escape the harm done to us by evangelical culture.
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After Hours #2 Mahrs Schoppman- Psychotherapy for Queer Ex-Christians
Mahrs Schoppman is a graduate of APU who developed his identity as both a queer person and a deconstructed christian while there. He is grateful to APU for providing an easy foil to pick apart the hollow theology of evangelicalism and for introducing him to his community of fellow queer students, with whom he is still friends to this day. He talks about his work with queer clients seeking healing from religious trauma and responds to some of the stories on this podcast. He was actually introduced anonymously in the finale of season 1 when A Scott talked about their relationship, and he shares his thoughts about Abbie and Liz's, Nate's and Ella's stories. You can find out more about Mahrs' work at www.therapywithmahrs.com.
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S2.E16: Eugene- The Asian American in the Closet (APU)
Eugene was a student in my last ever Freshman Writing class at APU. We've kept in touch over the years, and I knew I wanted him to tell his story on Chapel Probation early on. After sharing an experience on the facebook group, Eugene agreed to be interviewed, and I'm so glad. We talk about the special brand of evangelical racism he encountered, his experiences being in all the different choirs, and his memories of being a closeted queer student before coming out years after he left APU. While most non-white cis-het men have to deal with bigotry and marginalization, Eugene had to deal with feeling both invisible and stereotyped as an Asian American, and feeling like his sexual identity was something to tamp down and ignore. Fortunately, he has learned and is learning to explore all aspects of his identity now. And like so many, he has APU to thank for his faith deconstruction, which has enabled him to dive into his identities.
Nate and Gail from the Full Mutuality podcast join me and my daughter Audrey for this week's Chapel Probation players sketch. And we continue with our "special" music bits with a bonus segment in which we re-imagine a beloved worship song as a queer anthem. You'll hear Eugene in the "studio" recording the track as the "producer" tries to make sense of it as the track becomes more and more...horny.
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S2.E15: Blake Chastain- The ExVangelical Forefather (Indiana Wesleyan)
Blake Chastain created the ExVangelical hashtag and helped start a movement that has grown into what is now known as the "deconstruction" movement. Through this community on both twitter and in real life, I've met so many super cool people, including Blake, who I consider a friend today. Someday we'll hang in person, but this episode actually has me wondering if we might BE the same person in some sort of mishap with the space/time continuum. Until we get that sorted out, this episode has Blake talking his time at Indiana Wesleyan University where he began deconstructing from evangelical christianity. He had some great professors who challenge him and inspired him, and he had the typical professors who seemed as interested in fundamentalist indoctrination as teaching their subjects. But Blake has forged his own path of not just deconstruction, but decolonization, as he speaks often about his recognition of privilege as a White man and pushes back at White supremacy and complimentarianism.
This episode begins with another meeting of the Asian American Secret Society with Brad Onishi and Nate Nakao and I discussing whether or not to let a new member into the group, Veterans of Culture Wars co-host, Zach Malm. I should have probably written a script for this one, but we had fun just vamping improv-style.
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After Hours #1 Asha Dahya- Reproductive Rights
In this first episode of Chapel Probation After Hours we have Asha Dahya, a writer, filmmaker and reproductive rights activist talking about her work and her reaction to S2.E14 with Carla Godwin. We spend the time talking about the connection between the patriarchy and misogyny of Carla's experiences at Grace University and the dismantling of reproductive rights today. Asha is currently in the final week of fundraising for her short documentary, "Someone You Know" which showcases 3 stories of women desperately needing abortions and the nightmare of navigating the anti-choice landscape of today. If you're reading this description before November 8, 2022, please consider giving to the project on Asha's Kickstarter campaign at https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ashadahya/someone-you-know. Give what you can and know you are helping the cause of women's reproductive and health rights by having these important stories get out into the world.
You can follow all of Asha's work on Twitter at https://twitter.com/Ashadahya and Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/ashadahya/.
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S2.E14: Carla- The Answer to Patriarchy and Purity Culture (Grace University)
I was fortunate enough to meet Carla a the Deconstruction Meetup in Portland, and I am so grateful to call her a friend today. Her story and her perspective are so important for everyone to hear.
We mentioned Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers and Pastor Josh Scott as excellent resources for christians regarding sexuality and a progressive worldview. I think they are also just great resources for everyone.
The Chapel Probation Players are back this week with Meghan Crozier joining an angel of the Lord to shed light on the raw deal women get in life and marriage.
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S2.E13: Zach Malm- The Megachurch Destroyer (Seattle Pacific University)
Zach Malm came from a family prominent in the Vineyard church world and went to Seattle Pacific University where he was sorely disappointed in both the theological depth and the academic rigor. He ended up seeking these things at a new startup church called Mars Hill. Yes, that Mars Hill. The good news Is that Zach would eventually be credited with bringing Mars Hill down when he revealed to the world that a misogynistic asshole posting on the church website was none other than head pastor Mark Driscoll, himself. He deconstructed during the Trump era and now is a co-host of the Veterans of Culture Wars podcast.
You can hear more about Zach's epic tale of taking down Mars Hill Church on the Full Mutuality Podcast, and his own VCW podcast.
Bonus this week: We wrote and recorded a song. It's called, "Jesus Is Cool- A-minor Worship). We joked on the VCW podcast that there weren't any worship songs in A-minor, so we decided to write a deconstruction "worship" song. Mr. ExVangelical, himself, Blake Chastain, joined the choir at the end. The song is up on Scott's soundcloud.
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S2.E12: Josie Jimenez- The Not-So-Little Leftist Hippie (APU)
Josie Jimenez arrived at APU the semester after I left. Her 4 years culminated with the 2016 election and swearing into office Donald Trump, which made a lot of sense to her as she witnessed the rise of the alt-right at APU. But those 4 years helped Josie find both her community and her sense of purpose to push back at bigotry and oppression. As she shed her upbringing in Pentecostal and Baptist churches and found herself in opposition to fundamentalist teachings at APU, Josie found purpose and identity. She is a co-creator of the Speaking in Church podcast with her good friend Spencer Rose Taylor, and together they talk about "about everything from current events and how your theology informs your responses to them to other hot topics in the church."
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S2.E11: John and Chris- The Rebels of a School in a Church (Moody Bible Institute-Spokane)
John Verner and Chris Loux went to the Moody Bible Institute in Spokane, Washington in the years leading up to the Trump era. Like most guests of Chapel Probation, they came in on fire for their respective brands of fundamentalist faith, with John coming from a Calvinist background. Amazingly, these two became unlikely friends through their shared love of music, even though Chris had a completely different background. They both quickly began deconstructing their faiths as they learned more and asked questions. What really impressed me, though, is how these two white men, coming from vastly different backgrounds, both began decolonizing in the midst of some pretty hard deconstruction of their theologies and their faiths. They saw the overt racism, anti-LGBTQIA hatred, and misogyny in evangelical culture, and they pushed back.
John is the creator of the Cult of Christianity podcast today, and his second season should be starting around the time of this episode's release. And even though John and Chris now live on opposite coasts, they are still great friends with Chris often joining John on the podcast. These young men give me hope for the future of this movement centered around deconstruction, and I'm so glad I've gotten to know them this year.
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S2.E10: Bruce Whyte- The Man Who Made His Own Space (APU)
While many of the guests on Chapel Probation explored and developed their identities as they actively fought against the bigoted culture at their evangelical schools, Bruce Whyte came to APU and never felt like those movements and the spaces that birthed them were for him. But Bruce was not a typical BIPOC student at APU whose mind was colonized by whiteness. Quite the opposite. Bruce just came to APU with an already developed sense of self as a Black man whose perspectives just didn't quite match those of the student groups trying to foment a new revolution at APU. Bruce was a keen observer of what was going on, though, and he used his observations and experiences to shape who he would become as an ordained chaplain. There is so much wisdom and insight into race, the human condition, and so much compassion and empathy in Bruce today, and his negative experiences at APU played in role in Bruce's growth as a person and as a chaplain.
No Chapel Probation Players this week. Instead I took time to honor a former colleague, Dr. Matthew Hauge, who bore the brunt of the the dysfunction and brokenness of the BIPOC community at APU.
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S2.E9: Adrianne Montero Camacho- The Azusa in APU
Adrianne and her twin sister Analiese grew up just blocks from APU in the city of Azusa. They had no idea that the city they knew and loved had an enclave of mostly wealthy, predominantly White people who looked down on them and saw them as unsaved because they were Catholics. And unlike other BIPOC students on this podcast who found pockets of safety in the Multi-Ethnic Programs or in Haven, Adrianne struggled, at first, to find a place to just exist without judgment and condemnation. As someone who didn't speak Spanish, she didn't feel welcome in LASA. She had to hear students, faculty, and staff talk about the "dangers" of the city of Azusa outside the walls of the APU campus. She faced overt racism. And she had to endure constant scorn and criticism of her, then, Catholic faith.
Incredibly, Adrianne taught herself how to push back at the many layers of bigotry she faced. She engaged her classes and classmates, and she argued with her professors. In the end, the crucible that is APU molded Adrianne into a tough, compassionate person who fought for others as much as she fought for herself.
It's a emotional ride to the end of this episode, and Adrianne shares a piece of her past self that paints APU as the bigoted, awful place it is for people like us.
This week's Chapel Probation Players introduces Naomi Ko, an actress, writer, and filmmaker best known for her role in the film version of Dear White People and the Mortified podcast and documentary on Netflix.
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S2.E8- Matthew- The Bad and Mean Professor Magnet (APU)
Matthew came to APU looking like the prototypical APU man. He was a White guy from Orange County who attended a megachurch, but he came to school knowing he was not a straight man. As he navigated his faith and tried to reconcile it with his sexuality, he quickly discovered that he needed to push back at the professors spewing lies and hate at LGBTQIA people. He grew tired of the ridiculously bad academics in his liberal studies and education courses, so he took a second major in psychology to get some sense of an academic experience. It turns out pastors do not necessarily make good college professors. It also turns out the psychology department, at the time, hired and supported bigoted professors who spewed lies and evangelical bullshit.
In this episode, Matt brings the heat with notes about all of his stories. We didn't even get to all of them, but this episode is an indictment of both the low-level academics and the bigoted views of the faculty at all evangelical schools.
This week's Chapel Probation Players has Audrey Okamoto, Allen Okamoto (Scott's nephew), and Owen Okamoto playing APU students.
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S2.E7: Ashley Dunston- The Woman Who Defied the Patriarchy (Vanguard University)
Ashley Dunston went to Vanguard University in Orange County, California, where she realized that evangelical culture coddled and supported her abusive father more than it supported her. Women get asked to forgive abuse from men all the time, and Ashley was asked to do everything she could to reconcile with a man who didn't respect her as a person for the sake of following the "biblical" principle of family values. Along the way, Ashley began deconstructing her faith, with help from some solid professors who looked out for her, and she started to live life without evangelical fear. She eventually met, fell in love with, and married a man who supports her as she is.
You can hear more of Ashley's story on the Profane Faith podcast here.
This week's Chapel Probation Players episode is a cringe-fest with Audrey Okamoto, Scott's daughter playing the purity culture victim role. No daughters were harmed in the production of this episode. But we did feel gross.
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S2.E6: Lina- The Baptism of Fire to the Rave Community Pipeline at APU
Lina went to APU as a newer evangelical christian and did her best to fit in and follow all the rules. Her recent conversion, though, meant she didn't know all the cultural and social references to evangelical culture. Her decision to go to South Africa for a 3-month mission trip would become a first step out of evangelical christianity as she was thrown into a culture in transition with race tensions and the AIDS crisis raging through the country. Of course APU did not prepare students for what they would encounter, and the stress of living in such blatant racism and the callous treatment of people dying of AIDS gave Lina and many others PTSD. They are still dealing with the fallout to this day. To top it off, APU had one more traumatic experience to provide Lina right after the missions work ended.
This episode was created just before the Chapel Probation Players were formed, so we'll have them back next week.
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S2.E5: Tori Williams Douglass- The Leader We All Need (Northwest College)
Tori Williams Douglass is an educator and podcaster who went from a cult-like family upbringing to an Assemblies of God bible college. Thankfully, she dropped out after just one year of the typical racism, sexism, queerphobia, and annoying theo-bro's, thus continuing and accelerating her deconstruction from christianity altogether. Today, her White Homework podcast and website is a crucial resource for all who are decolonizing our minds from anti-Blackness, and her Go Home Bible; You're Drunk podcast with co-host Justin Gentry uses humor and the hosts' extensive knowledge of the Bible to point out the absurdities in both the texts and the interpretations of the texts.
In this episode, Scott and Tori go through Tori's short time at Western Bible College (which later became Western Bible University) and share some laughs about churches and Christian culture.
This episode also has the debut of The Chapel Probation Players to give a satirical "other side." This week features traci kato-kiriyama, one of Scott's closest friends who is a poet, actor, activist, writer, playwright, and all-around badass.
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S2.E4: Nate Nakao- The Demerit King of Bob Jones U (BJU)
*Warning to current Bob Jones University students and employees: This episode contains music with beats on 2 and 4, so you are not allowed to listen. But you should. We won't tell.
A little longer episode than normal, but I just had to get all the stories into this one from Nate Nakao. Nate is the co-creator and co-host of the Full Mutuality Podcast, and his story of surviving Bob Jones University, or BJU (pause for teenage giggling)...will blow your mind. If life at APU, Biola, or Vanguard seems horrible, there are no words to describe life at BJU. With a draconian demerit system in place to monitor and police student behavior, they're basically hunting for reasons to expel students as sinners or, dare I say, reprobates. In a place where a single drink of alcohol or viewing of a PG movie results in immediate expulsion, the notion of any kind of life that values art and connection to the world is simply not possible. But Nate pushed back, even as he fought to remain at BJU, and came out feeling certain that this kind of christianity was not for him, or anyone who had any sense of self.
Sadly, Nate would go on to join the megachurch world, including Hillsong, which you can learn about on the Full Mutuality Podcast, but this episode is just about BJU. And it's a lot. Happily, Nate is now a self-actualized person. He and his partner Gail have started the podcast collective Dauntless Media, which you're tuning into now, and he is doing the work to undo the damage done by evangelical culture. A happy ending after BJU.
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S2.E3: Cynthia Vacca Davis (Unnamed Bible School)- The Repugnant Adjacent Adjunct
Every adjunct college professor dreams of having a full-time, tenure-track position. Cynthia Vacca Davis was offered a tenured position teaching English at a small Bible College, a job that offered a good salary with benefits. The problem was, Cynthia had just agreed to be a supporter of her friend Danny, who had just come out as an intersex male after living well into his adulthood as a female. The president of the Unnamed Bible College (UBS) pretty much lost his dull, tiny mind upon hearing about Cynthia's friend and her plan to write about Danny in her MFA program. So, Cynthia had to make a choice: sign the violently anti-LGBTQIA faith statement to get the job or forego the job in hopes of finding something else.
Evangelical schools make every student, faculty, and staff member sign statements of faith that contain all manner of indefensible garbage, and many sign it in bad faith, choosing to ignore the statement and still be in good standing at the school. I have a whole book about doing this, myself. But Cynthia couldn't bring herself to attach her name to a school that expressed such overt hatred towards so many people in the world. She has a book, Intersexion, from Lake Drive Books about her and Danny's journeys that I hope you all will buy and read. I know I learned a lot about intersex people from it.
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S2.E2: Abbie and Liz part 2- The Women Who Scared the S@#$ out of APU
In the second part of our almost 4-hour conversation, Abbie and Liz talked about the many ways evangelical culture oppresses women, particularly queer women and women of color. They tell stories of how they fought patriarchal systems from the inside at APU through the so-called Women's Resource Center and inside the classrooms. As we suffer through a dark time of Supreme Court activism on behalf of fundamentalist views, Abbie and Liz remind us that this fight has existed long before 2022, long before they fought the good fight at APU from 2007 to 2012, and even before that. But they also remind us that it's worth the cost to wage this war for women because so much is at stake. Evangelicals really believe women are subservient to men, and this view is dictating the very laws that govern our country. I know you will be inspired by the courage and the clarity of thought from Abbie and Liz in this episode.
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S2.E1: Hope and Nikki (Biola)- The Time of Their Lives
Biola is a Southern California evangelical school, similar to APU. It tends to be a little more conservative in every measurable way, but Hope and Nikki decided early on to push back at the repressive culture around them. They lived their lives to the fullest, going to great lengths to appear to be "good" Biola students while maintaining a fast-paced life of partying and fun. But it wasn't all fun and games. Their unwillingness to cater to white male fundamentalist rules made life difficult and even dangerous for them.
In the end, both Hope and Nikki saw through the charade of Biola's "chill" and "relatable" evangelicalism and recognized the racism, sexism, and ridiculous purity culture vibes all around them. Most importantly for them, they realized the treatment of women and women of color were a preview of the coming age of Trump.
Be sure to check out Hope's blog, And Hope Does Not Disappoint.
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"Science" at APU
This was the 5th Episode of Season 1, and one of the more popular ones at that, but out of an abundance of caution, I moved it behind a paywall. But it's back by popular demand! 2 new "ads" featuring the best of "conservative christian" organizations, Plaulty (Psalty's cousin) and a Metal Men's Rights Science group.
Ryan and Anthony talk about being science majors in a place stuck between trying to be a respected academic institution while still upholding the anti-science values of the evangelical world. It's both hilarious and tragic. Both men talk about their deconstruction at APU and how the school's attitude toward science was directly tied to the overall vibe of the school as more simplistic indoctrination machine than higher education institution. If you're wondering how we got to this age of "alternative facts" and disbelief in the science of vaccines and pandemics, Ryan's and Anthony's stories and observations will give insight into the parts of evangelical culture that contributed to all of that. And we'll have some bittersweet laughs along the
Ryan and Anthony talk about being science majors in a place stuck between trying to be a respected academic institution while still upholding the anti-science values of the evangelical world. It's both hilarious and tragic. Both men talk about their deconstruction at APU and how the school's attitude toward science was directly tied to the overall vibe of the school as more simplistic indoctrination machine than higher education institution. If you're wondering how we got to this age of "alternative facts" and disbelief in the science of vaccines and pandemics, Ryan's and Anthony's stories and observations will give insight into the parts of evangelical culture that contributed to all of that. And we'll have some bittersweet laughs along the way.
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Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, and Scott Okamoto
Episode 13: UPDATE: NOW GOES BY AE SCOTT- The First Wave of LGBTQ Hope at APU
Long before Haven, led by Glenda and her friends, found themselves in a national spotlight, Amy Scott came to APU not yet understanding their identity. Within a year of their time there, they would realize they was not straight, and that this part of their identity was a threat to the fabric of APU's conservative evangelical culture. This also meant, the culture was a very real threat to their fledgling community being formed in the wake of Soul Force's Equality Ride. That event would embolden two students to take a stand against the school's anti-LGBTQ policies, and it would give Amy a sense of purpose for themself. They would go on to be an activist with Soul Force, staging protests against the military's so-called, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" rule and the barbaric treatment of LGBTQ students at APU.
I distinctly remember watching Amy from afar, deciding just how I wanted to make it known that I was an ally. The posts on the infamous Door of Discussion were getting campus-wide attention thanks to two students who identified as gay, and there was pressure for all faculty to toe the evangelical line. But once the door had been opened, pun intended, the choice was clear to me. I couldn't just hide behind my role as English professor. I had to pick a side, and I knew I had to pick the right side. When students soon after started the Gay/Straight Alliance (GSA), they asked me to be a part of it, and I jumped in. Abbie and Liz's and Glenda's episodes tell those stories.
But Amy and their friends were all alone, in a much more scary time for them. Whereas Glenda described Haven's influence on the campus which created a kind of "cool" rebellious vibe where straight kids wanted to be involved and often presented themselves as queer, Amy and their friends went to APU at a time where queerness was universally regarded as being an abomination. Students were being expelled, faculty were being fired, and the culture was completely unforgiving to anyone who was queer or queer-affirming. It was extremely rare for me to encounter a student who was not openly hostile to queer people. And yet, Amy and their friends pushed and resisted, sacrificing their sanity and their safety to make change in an impossible setting.
But there were young people watching, and they would continue the fight that continues to this day.
You can follow Amy Scott on instagram.
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Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, and Scott Okamoto.
Episode 12: Glenda- The One Who Stepped Up
Glenda McDannel was tapped by Haven's graduating leaders to be a co-leader of the group just as it was emerging from the shadows of APU's underground. She didn't know it at the time, but she would help lead the group into battle with the homophobic and transphobic culture and administration to make the campus safer than it was. And during her final years, she would see Haven become a nationally known group.
APU's Queer community became a fascinating cross-section of students who were openly queer, students who were "wrestling" with their queerness, and students who simply wanted to appear to be counter-cultural. It reminded me of wealthy white students adopting hip hop identities as some kind of cool rebellion in a conservative white space. Some students even claimed to be some form of queer while also maintaining their fundamentalist, purity culture, evangelical values. If the journey of coming out is complicated in the secular world, it is exponentially more complicated in evangelical spaces. With all of the spiritual and emotional abuse and resulting baggage, the process is fraught with guilt, anxiety, and fear.
Even so, Glenda and her community fought for their place at APU. Building on the work of the generations before them, they continued the activism, and art nights, and the celebrations of life needed to make the fight worthwhile.
But in the end, Glenda would be expelled from APU in the shadiest of manners, leaving us to believe she was booted out for her role in making APU safer for LGBTQ students. This was confirmed by a well-intentioned administrator keeping in touch with her and reaching out to help her get back in years later and after an official LGBTQ student org was in place. The fact that he thanked her for all her work to help LGBTQ students only made it worse. The very things she was kicked out for were being lauded but only because the policies had changed.
To her credit, Glenda refused to return and finish the 2 classes needed to graduate. She is living her life with a good job. She is married. And she is still an amazing person I am honored to know.
The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.
Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.
You can see videos, read Scott's blog, and keep up to date with Scott's book at rscottokamoto.com.
Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, and Scott Okamoto.
Episode 11: Dr. Craig Boyd- The Bad Good Administrator
It is an honor to have Dr. Boyd join us on Chapel Probation to give us insight into what went on behind the closed doors of an administration that loudly claimed to care about things like diversity and academic excellence while seeming to make decisions contrary to those ideals. What we as faculty and students assumed was some kind of evil intent (and I'm sure that was there), might have simply been incompetence coupled with blind allegiance to the almighty conservative dollar from alumni and far-right donors. Whatever the reasons for all the shit we went through, systemically, culturally, and theologically, there seem to have been confused and inept administrators pulling the strings and pushing the buttons, and Dr. Boyd was there to witness it all.
You will be amazed. You will gasp in disbelief. You will laugh out loud. And if you went to APU or any school like it, you will be depressed.
The Chapel Probation Instagram remains mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.
Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.
As always, you can find out more about Scott, his forthcoming book, and other writing and videos at rscottokamoto.com.
Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Azeem Kahn, and Scott Okamoto.
Episode 10: Dr. Daniel White Hodge- The Best of the "Not APU Material" Profs
Dr. Daniel White Hodge survived 8 long years at APU, teaching in Global Studies and Biblical Studies. He refused to play nice with the white supremacist culture of the school, and that, as many of us know very well, makes for a tortuous experience at APU. But like many of us, Dan found and developed his identity as a Black man and as a Christian as he fought for his humanity and his place at the school. After 8 years of teaching and fighting the racist culture of the students, the faculty, and the administration, Dan was done. He has gone on to teach at other schools and his podcast, Profane Faith is in its 6th season.
I met Dan through Sammie Howell, whom you've heard in episode 4 of this podcast, and loved seeing him around campus and hanging out once in a while. He was gracious enough to come speak to APASO one night, and he scared the bejesus out of the Asian kids with his account of his experience in the LA Riots.
But Dan is such a great ally of all marginalized peoples, including Asian Americans, and his humor and generous spirit is infectious. Through his teaching and his podcast, he is making the world a better place through dialogue and story.
The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.
Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.
Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, and Scott Okamoto.
Episode 9: Jonathan- The Man at the Table
Jonathan Garcia just gets shit done. He has made a life of putting himself in places of power and influence, at times at great cost to his sanity and humanity. As an undergrad and graduate student at APU, he forged his identity as a co-founder of LASA (Latin American Student Association), as a leader in student government, and as a member of the administration itself. That put him at the table with rich, conservative, bigoted people, but Jonathan worked to form relationships and influenced their views. The significance of the fact that he got the president of the school at the time, Jon Wallace, to change his views on immigration can't be overstated. APU is a place where hispanic students can go with support and financial aid, regardless of citizenship status. Real change as a result of Jonathan and LASA.
For people like me, I have only disgust and hurt when I think of APU's administration and board of trustees. I was never given the benefit of the doubt, and I was listed as a "bad" or "dangerous" professor simply because I dared talk about social justice, racism, sexuality, and identity in my classes. But Jonathan reminds me that the people I hate are, in fact, people. He gave them the chance to see him and rethink their views. He's a goddamn hero.
Jonathan is currently the Chief of Staff at Portland Public Schools. He has worked in education at several huge school districts, and he was named by Forbes as one of their 30 Under 30 in Education.
The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.
Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.
Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, and Scott Okamoto.
Episode 8: Liam- The Deconstruction Pipeline Expander
Liam Young is a former student who, by all measures, shouldn't have gotten along with me. When we first met, he was ultra-conservative and a newly enlisted Marine. But from the very beginning, he was interested in learning and being challenged. Seeing firsthand how the prosperity gospel is both a horrible misreading of the bible and a weapon used against lower-income people, Liam began deconstructing from evangelicalism early on. From there he saw racism and other forms of bigotry ingrained in evangelical culture, but here's where it gets interesting. Instead of sliding into liberal or progressive views, Liam looked more into older versions of christianity.
It's not my thing at all, but it makes a kind of sense when you think about it. Contemporary versions of christianity have added white nationalism, bigotry, and worship of money to their religion, Liam went looking to church traditions that existed around 1500 years before evangelicals were formed. There he and his wife found theological answers to his criticisms of evangelicalism, but there was a catch. They found all this theological wonder in an Egyptian Coptic Orthodox church.
In the end, Liam is a kindred spirit who cares about humanity while holding to his faith. I salute him for that. So many conservative kids came and went through my classroom who refused to engage in discourse about tough topics. Liam was always up for discussion, and he was an eager and active listener. All this made for an amazing story of personal convictions leading to growth and discovery. An inspiring and fascinating story all around.
The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.
Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.
Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, and Scott Okamoto.
Episode 7: Matt and Rod- The LASA Incident
Before LASA (Latin America Student Association), ethnic orgs at APU were places to hide out away from the oppressive white culture that dominated the campus. The Multi-Ethnic Programs office was safe space to find your people and build communities of support. Matthew Gonzalez, Rod Olmeda-Lopez, and Jonathan Garcia created LASA during the beginning of the Obama era. Not content to just offer support and care to the shell-shocked Latino(x) community's daily experiences of racism, they forced APU to confront its racism head on. They changed school policy and fought the school's racism when the school told them they couldn't honor the late Joe Snell, the director of MEP, with a Dia de los Muertos offrenda.
APU only had Town Hall meetings when the shit really hit the fan. Just a year earlier, it held one to address one of the many swastika incidents. LASA would force a second one when it voiced its anger at having their Dia de los Muertos display taken down for no other reason than it was not a white tradition. The admin told them it had pagan roots despite acknowledging that school-sanctioned events around Halloween and Christmas also had pagan roots. The difference? Hmmmm....
But it wasn't just protesting. They worked with administration and the board of trustees to get APU designated as "serving hispanic communities," they made financial aid available to undocumented students, and they got Spanish translations for the live stream of graduation. Just as importantly, LASA pushed the culture to pay attention to all non-white communities, which may sound strange, but believe me...that was something.
These guys are my brothers. I'm so proud of who they have become, and I'm honored to have seen them grow from confused young evangelical men into who they are today. Do I poke fun of them? Of course. But they are two of the strongest and most admirable people I've ever known. Enjoy the episode.
The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.
Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.
Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, and Scott Okamoto.
Episode 6: Abbie and Liz- The One-Two Punch
For at least 6 or 7 years, maybe more, an amazing event took place at APU (and then the Citrus College parking lot when they got booted). The LGBTQ club, first called the GSA (gay-straight alliance) and then Haven, put on a showcase of LGBTQ creativity and pride. At first, it was just called "Art Night," and it was held at the 7 Palms, an outdoor amphitheater ringed by palm trees...7 of them, I believe, though I don't think I ever actually counted. The first few years, the group was underground, and we relished the thrill of putting on an event with poetry, music, and visual art celebrating LGBTQ identities in plain sight on APU's campus. It was a brazen thing to do, since technically, we could have all been kicked out for doing it. But we did it.
Abbie and Liz Cirelli both played significant roles in making the GSA/Haven and Art Night happen, and they both organized protests and movements to change the draconian culture and policies of APU. They made things happen by building coalitions and using them to force the administration and the culture to shift its policies and views of LGBTQ people. Badasses, both of them.
This is the first of two episodes with Abbie and Liz who will be back to continue the stories about feminism and misogyny inside APU's conservative evangelical culture.
You can find resources for LGBTQ advocacy on christian campuses at The REAP.
The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.
Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.
Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, and Scott Okamoto.
Episode 5: Ella- The Grit and the Grace
Ella Baker survived APU while presenting as a half Korean and White young man knowing she was something more. Her deconstruction began early on as she realized through the sheer force of her intellect that evangelical culture had lied to her. After a period of atheism and anger, she channeled her energies into spiritual growth and became a strong, zen, christian, trans woman.
While at APU, she was part of a group of students called, the Sisters 9. It was a writing group where they could share their writing and music that didn't fit with the values and ethos of APU's ultra-conservative evangelical culture. This group inspired me with its commitment to developing their craft with all of them developing their own identities in direct opposition to APU's identity. They were, to me, a combination of the Bloomsbury Group in 1920's England and the Beat generation of the 60's. You will hear more from this group in the future.
Finally, you will hear an indictment of evangelical higher education. While there are some damn fine professors at places like APU, far too many classes are taught as evangelical indoctrination courses instead of the stated subjects in the course descriptions. Depending on your path through the faculty, you could be well-prepared for graduate school or horribly unprepared. Or something in between. Whatever the academic experience, you will be traumatized if you aren't a conservative cis-het, white person.
As with others on this podcast, Ella found a way to survive and learn to convert the trauma into life skills. You will be inspired.
You can find Ella at Heyellabird on Instagram.
The Chapel Probation Instagram has been mysteriously shut down, but you can support this podcast on the Chapel Probation Patreon.
Join the conversation about everything on the Chapel Probation Facebook group and sign up for behind-the-scenes info about this podcast and Scott's book on his Substack Newsletter.
Music in this episode by Shin Kawasaki and Wingo Shackleford, Elephants with Guns, Azeem Kahn, and Scott Okamoto.
Episdode 4: Sammie Howell- The Badass Asian Without the Chopsticks
Sammie Howell was one of the progressive pillars of her class of 2010. She went from "on fire" somewhat conservative evangelical to firebrand progressive warrior in her four years at APU. From the very beginning of her experience, she found herself on the outside of APU's white, wealthy culture. After an early incident where a fellow student asked her if she knew how to use chopsticks (Filipinos don't use chopsticks for their food), she found APASO (Asian Pacific American Student Org) and began her growth into a badass leader in a sort of Multi Ethnic Org renaissance. In addition to her work and advocacy for race issues, she joined the newly formed Gay/Straight alliance, even taking great risk in lending her apartment as the secret meeting space. If we had been found out, we would have faced grave consequences, as we had members of student government, RA's, and...a faculty member at those meetings.
There is a surprise at the end of the episode that both gives a glimpse into Sammie's strength, pain, and love, while at the same time making the case that white evangelical spaces are not safe for those on the margins.
Join the fight on the Chapel Probation Patreon where you can hear an introductory interview with Satan and Baby Jesus with more content on the way.
And we've started a Chapel Probation Facebook Group where we share our stories from all christian schools. We need more people from other schools! There is also a Chapel Probation Instagram with previews of coming episodes. A fledgling Discord Server that is hanging by a thread, so consider joining to help out.
Big thanks to Shin Kawasaki and Wingso Shackleford for the new music this week that takes the episode to new places.
Additional music by Elephants With Guns and Scott Okamoto.
Episode 3: Dacia Taleni- The Scariest Word for EV's is...
Meet Dacia, a Black Samoan woman who could always be found in APU's social justice spaces spitting poems, singing, and clapping back at white supremacy. She looks back and talks about how she was so angry at the white evangelical culture around her while simultaneously playing along and repping the school as a Multi-Ethnic senator. She also shares the struggle students face when they come from lower socioeconomic backgrounds than the majority of students at APU.
One of Scott's most memorable moments in his 15 years at APU came courtesy of Dacia. In her last semester, she was forced to take a freshman-level Intro to Literature class in order to graduate, so she took Scott's class. In it, she performed a poem and created a moment that will forever be cemented in Scott's (and the class's) memory. V is for victory and...
You can find Dacia's work on Instagram and her podcast about Samoan culture, The Real Tautala.
Music this week by Elephants With Guns, and Azeem Kahn, in addition to Scott's original music.
If you think the mission of Chapel Probation is important, consider joining the Patreon. There will be bonus content and behind-the-scenes stuff.
Episode 2: BJ- The Worst-Case Scenario
If APU knew that it was directly responsible for the deconstruction of conservative, white men, it would lose a lot of sleep. BJ Karlik is a physical therapist in Colorado Springs who now identifies as an atheist. He credits APU's Bible classes for his deconstruction, and his story obliterates the current narrative from famous Evangelical pastors who say the EX-Vangelical movement is based solely on "isolated" bad experiences of bigotry and a desire for hedonism. Bigotry is, indeed, an issue, and hedonism is fun, but those are not the only reasons for deconstruction. In BJ's case, they weren't remotely involved in his deconstruction.
There is a salute to BJ's wife, Carrie, who BJ says "did a little Campus Crusade in college" (sounds like drug experimentation!) who came to understand the urgent need to see the Evangelical world for what it is. It takes courage to ask hard questions and take stands that leave you on the outside of communities created for you, and both BJ and Carrie have shown a great deal of it.
Please consider joining the Chapel Probation Discord server to continue the conversation and get more insights into each episode.
And if you're interested in supporting the Chapel Probation mission, please join the Chapel Probation Patreon and get bonus content.
I went down to Hell to get a sound cue for this episode, so I hope everyone appreciates the effort there. Thanks to my son, Ethan and his friends for their screams.
Episode 1: Dez- The One They Called
Dez Revish revisits his unique time at APU and recounts his deconstruction of faith. After growing up in a Black church, the christianity of the evangelical world felt like a completely different religion with a different god and Jesus. As a leader in the Multi-Ethnic Programs community, Dez became a conduit between administration and the students. This put him in a tough spot, as he learned that the administration had no real interest in changing the racist culture, but rather it wanted to appease the progressive students and stay in the good graces of the Board of Trustees and all conservative funders.
In the end, Dez is happy being far away from evangelical culture and APU. He currently lives in Texas with his girlfriend and two kids.