By Securing Sexuality
This podcast is here to help with tips for safer sex in a digital age.
Offering insights into intriguing and often taboo subjects are our hosts, Stefani Goerlich and Wolfgang Goerlich. They’re joined by experts on cybersecurity, cybersexuality, sextech, mental health, and more. Listen in.
Securing SexualityOct 01, 2023
54. Strange New Worlds: The Science of Space Sexology
If you've ever wondered what the coolest job EVER was, Simon Dubé has it. Simon is a post-doctoral research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, where he specializes in erobotics, sextech and space sexology. YES.... he is a space sex scientist! And he is here to tell us all about his work in erobotics, the International Congress on Love, Sex and Robots, and why the future of space exploration might be more female than most sci-fi movies have led us to believe. This interview is can't-miss for anyone who ever watched the opening sequence of Barbarella and thought to themselves "that's what I want to be when I grow up."
53. We're Breaking Up
Breakups are never easy. It never fails to surprise us how quickly love can turn to anger and hurt. Knowing that our now-ex has a record of the good times, the sexy times, can make a breakup feel even more stressful and disorienting. This week, Wolf and Stef are here to talk about how to navigate the tech side of a breakup- what to do with all of those saved flirtations and deeply personal pics you have saved once the person you shared them with is no longer around. We discuss the ethics of living like Lasso, explore what our options are when the one we used to love isn't quite as invested in protecting our privacy anymore, and offer some best practices for broken hearts.. and breached passwords.
52. Way Cooler Than We Are - Rachel Lark
Sex-positive Punk-Folk musician Rachel Lark, creator of the rock comedy musical "Coming Soon" which explores themes of connection and healing from trauma, visits Securing Sexuality this week! Her hits include “Polyamory Blues,” “Shut Up & Hit Me,” "Warm, Bloody, And Tender,” “It’s Hard To Be A Feminist," and she's here to tell Wolf and Stef all about her journey into music, her thoughts on internet fame, her upcoming tour, and how bawdy music-making can change a life and rock the house.
Join the community of people supporting Rachel's radical work by making a pledge on Patreon [RachelLark.com/Patreon]
51. RevengeBabyHippos.com Doesn't Exist: DMCA Basics for Everyone
What do you do when your photo pops up somewhere you DON'T want to be? Do you have any options? Heck... do you even own your image? Inspired by a recent call from a concerned therapist, this week Wolf tells Stefani all about the Digital Millennium Copyright Act- how it can protect you when unwanted images, recordings, and other content is shared online and where it's usefulness is limited. What does ANY of this have to do with baby hippos? Tune in this week to find out.
50. Screw You, Pay Me.
Shakun Sethi had a vision: she wanted to create a user-friendly, approachable s3x education platform that would let people get answers to the questions they were too embarrassed to ask anywhere else. She wanted to teach, to empower, to amuse. So when her site, Tickle.Life was deplatformed by her payment processors? She approached the situation like any passionate teacher would: she immersed herself in the world of credit card processing and online banking regulations in order to become an expert in working a system that was created to keep some people out- out of business and out of money. That's how Tickle.Pay was born. Tune in this week to learn about banking bias, the complicated world of "high risk" payment processing, and how one amazing woman is breaking down barriers not only for herself, but for everyone doing s3x and intimacy related work.
49. The Authenticity Patch
This August, Stefani was invited to speak at SquadCon- one of the many community events that happen in Las Vegas at Hacker Summer Camp. Join us as Wolf offers color commentary on her presentation, hear her thoughts on why developers need to be designing with mental health in mind, and learn why Stef STILL f*cking hates the Elf on the Shelf. Much like Summer Camp itself, this is not to be missed.
48. More Than Just Fans
We all know someone who logs on to Only Fans these days, either as a content creator or as a consumer. But what many of us don't realize is that the nature of the site has changed dramatically. In this episode, we are joined by Christine Leistner, a relationship scientist and public health scholar at California State University- Chico, who tells Stef and Wolf all about the ways in which Only Fans has become a go-to resource for education about intimacy and relationships. Sure, OF will still let its users scratch that voyeuristic itch that the site is most well known for... but it might also help them become better lovers, better partners, and better human beings along the way.
47. The Cross-Over Episode
Tune in for our first ever cross-over episode and listen in as our intrepid hosts join Rachel Arnold and Will McCullen for an episode of The Coffee Table Talk cybersecurity podcast. Join us for a heavily caffeinated conversation between three cybersecurity experts (and Stefani) as they explain why technologists need to be paying attention to the way people form and foster their relationships online and off.
46. The Pleasure Curator: Wolf and Stef Get Steamy with Melissa Saavedra
Melissa Saavedra is a Navy Veteran, romance novel connoisseur, and the founder of Steam Box- an artfully assembled, intentionally diverse, monthly box of hot reading, self-care products, and the occasional toy or two. This week, she's here to tell Stef and Wolf all about her path towards becoming an inclusive erotica entrepreneur as well as the conference she's hosting this fall for Romance aficionados, Steamy Lit Con. If you're a lover of steamy literature, if you've always wondered what the appeal of bodice rippers is, or if you just want to know how someone becomes a pleasure curator? This is the episode for you!
45. The Inevitable Barbie Episode
Anyone who knows Stefani knows that she is pink OBSESSED. From her hair to her desk, her brand can be summed up (in the words of her Rabbi) as "pink, controversial, and Jewish." So it's no wonder that Stef & Wolf's first post-pandemic trip back to the movie theater was to see Greta Gerwig's summer hit, the Barbie movie. It was slightly more surprising to Wolf to learn exactly what Stefani used to do with her Barbie's back in the day. Listen in as Wolf and Stef talk about the role that these classic toys have in helping children of all genders envision their future adult lives... and unpack some of the ways that the brand has gotten it wrong over the years. Remember the WiFi-enabled Hello Barbie, or the Video Girl Barbie camera? Yeah. This episode is for anyone who has ever watched a child play with their toys and wondered to themselves "what the actual f*@k are they doing?"
44. The Windows to the Soul: The Science of Human-Robot Interactions
Straithe is a social robotics, privacy/security, and human-computer interaction researcher and all-around badass. She's an expert in the ways our use of technology inform how we engage and form relationships with others- coworkers and grocery store clerks, partners and doctors, and everyone in between. Straithe believes that we build empathy for each other when we show empathy to the robots in our lives and she's here to tell us all about why this is and how we can become better humans by interacting with machines. Join us to learn about the small details that create a sense of distance between ourselves and the machines we encounter, and why learning to look past them can also inspire us to be more accepting, inclusive, and kind to the people in our world as well.
43. Stefani Goes to the Cyber Brothel
Flash back with us to early May, when Wolf and Stef were still on their European Sabbatical. Somewhere on the continent, there exists a cyber brothel- probably more than one, actually- and Stefani decided to check it out... for science. If you've ever wanted an experience that can only be described as somewhere between Labyrinth and Taken, this episode is for you. Listen in as Wolf and Stef recap her adventure, complete with audio recordings of what Stefani describes as "the least sexy thing I've ever done." Fair Warning: In this episode, somebody's yum is about to get yucked.
42. The Internet of Dongs Project
Brad "RenderMan" Haines" has been hacking things his whole life, but has been doing it professionally for over 20 years. Based out of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, he has done work to expose vulnerabilities in wireless networks, Government and corporate networks around the world, Air Traffic Control systems, and most recently, connected sex toys. He is the founder of the Internet of Dongs project (https://internetofdon.gs) where he and his wife, Circuitswan, work to educate consumers, retailers and the smart sex toy industry about safety and security issues before they become front-page news.
41. What To Do When It's Scary To Do Your Job
Recently, Wolf was asked by some friends of ours to offer safety suggestions for therapists working with clients who belong to targeted people- trans folks, queer people, women accessing reproductive healthcare, and others. This conversation is necessary because those who are fighting against the rights of these communities aren't just attacking legislatively- they're going after individual providers directly. In this week's episode, Wolf explains the systemic and institutional barriers to privacy that leave mental health providers exposed to harassment and abuse, and shares some strategies for protecting both your practice and your private information. Bodily autonomy and a sense of safety are basic rights everyone is entitled to, no matter what you do or who you are. This episode gives you a head start on protecting and preserving YOUR right to privacy and self-determination online and off.
40. Teaching Kids How To Unhush
Did you know that only 29 states require schools to teach sex education... and that 1/3 of those do NOT require this education to be medically accurate? Most of us were lucky enough to learn the "birds and bees basics" at some point before graduation; but how many of us were taught how to turn down unwanted attention with grace and tact- or to receive that no without shame or anger? That's where Unhushed comes in. Unhushed is a values-based, comprehensive educational curriculum for kids of all ages and Executive Director Karen Rayne is here with Curriculum Writer Jessica Smarr to tell us all about the importance of emotionally inclusive, medically accurate information... especially for kids who live and breathe social media. This isn't your gym teachers health class, thank goodness, and Stef and Wolf are here for it.
39. The Stonewall Generation, an Interview with Jane Fleishman
Recorded live at the AASECT (American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists) annual conference, Wolf and Stef sit down with author and activist Jane Fleishman to discuss her book The Stonewall Generation: LGBT Elders on Sex, Activism, and Aging. Jane tells us about using 1-800 numbers to find the next protest, singing songs while stuffing envelopes, and the best possible way to hand someone a leaflet. Along the way, she offers her advice for bridging the digital divide between aging activists and the next generation of social justice advocates. Sitting around the table together, Jane reminds us that young or old, online or on paper, Pride belongs to everyone.
38. Intimacy Justice (A Meta Conversation) with Jackie Rotman
Wolf and Stef are joined by Jackie Rotman, founder and CEO of The Center for Intimacy Justice, a nonprofit advocacy group focused on challenging ongoing censorship of information about sexual health for women and people of diverse genders by social media conglomerates. In this episode, Jackie explains why advertising menstrual products on Instagram is an act of social justice, how visibility impacts mental health, and what we can do to advocate for access to real, inclusive, medically accurate, and pleasure-promoting content online.
37. Good Flirting, Bad Therapy, and ChatGPT
Can ChatGPT make us better at flirting? Can AI replace my therapist? Should Stef & Wolf outsource this whole darn podcast to our future robot overlords? What does it mean to form a romantic attachment to a personality that may or may not actually exist? This week we explore all the ways in which people are using artificial intelligence to mediate their relationships- romantic, professional, and all points in between. Where is a philosopher when we need one?!
36. Making Love for $17 Million Dollars, A Conversation with Cindy Gallop
SexTech Revolutionary Cindy Gallop doesn't want much... she only wants to change the world. In this week's episode, Stef and Wolf are joined by the pioneering, activist, TED Talk speaker, and founder of the website Make Love, Not Porn to unpack the differences between social sex videos and pornography and learn more about how reframing our understanding of erotica can revitalize our society's understanding of sensuality, intimacy, society, and more. Cindy shares her vision for a vibrant, revelatory, celebratory, body- and pleasure-positive world where men, women, and everyone can feel safe and sexy... and it all starts with a little seed funding.
35. Sexy Spring Break! What Wolf & Stef Learned In Europe
Our intrepid and incorrigible co-hosts return from their epic multi-country learning extravaganza! This week, they're debriefing their experiences in ancient brothels, modern red-light districts, Spanish museums, and German nightclubs. They've spent the last seven weeks meeting up with some of the leading sexuality researchers, educators, and clinicians in Europe, and they're here to tell you all about it. What do Nazis have to do with drawing your curtains? Can we really believe what they tell us about ancient advertisements? Does falafel belong on a pizza? And how does a burlesque dancer decide what to take off... or not? These questions and more were answered on Wolf and Stef's Sexy Spring Break!
34. Making An Offer Your Roomba Can't Refuse
Touch, connection, companionship- these are primal needs. Cultures around the world teach that "It is not good for man to be alone"... but that doesn't mean companionship has to come from another human, right? Where do robots and digital personalities factor into our human quest for connection? How can technology help foster intimate justice and pleasure equity? Are there limits to what we can ask of machines? Yeah... we don't know. Good thing we have a philosopher on hand to help us ask the questions! Ezio di Nucci is professor of bioethics and director of the Centre for Medical Science and Technology Studies at the University of Copenhagen and he doesn't know either. But the conversation we have is great!
33. Privacy in a Post-Roe America, Part 3
Slightly less than one year ago, the Securing Sexuality podcast was launched to provide immediate, actionable security advice to people grappling with the Dobbs ruling, which overturned Roe v. Wade. We worried then about the way that personal data and digital communications would be weaponized against people seeking reproductive health care. Eight months later, Stef and Wolf revisit the topic to discuss a recent case in Texas involving private text messages being used in a wrongful death lawsuit involving a self-managed abortion. Tune in to this infuriating, terrifying, update to Privacy in a Post-Roe America today.
32. Street Smarts for the Information Superhighway
Remember back when the internet was new? Honestly... probably not. We're two generations removed from the dawn of the internet age and even those who were born before the days of the "information superhighway" find their memories of life before AOL rather blurry. The problem with living in this new age of ubiquitous tech is that we've all gotten used to it- we don't think much about online safety anymore because we've all heard those messages, fast-forwarded through the PSA's and dozed off during computer class. The idea that we "get it now" encourages complacency and exposes us to subtle risks we might not think to prevent. Thank goodness that Nicole Schwartz, security researcher and co-COO of The Diana Initiative is here to give us all a refresher course in 21st century street smarts.
31. How To Date A Serial Killer- Pepper Spray, Safety Checks, and Our First Date
What does it take to make Wolf nervous? Is the prospect of dating a serial killer enough to make him break a sweat? What steps should you take to protect yourself when you're meeting someone (or going somewhere) new? Are those fancy, jewelry-style personal safety baubles worth the cost or do they open you up to a whole new category of risk? We answer all those questions and more this week on Securing Sexuality.
30. Balancing Privacy & Protection: A Chat with Dr. Caleb Jacobson
Mandatory reporting laws are a cornerstone of the modern American social contract. Americans assume that those in positions of trust and authority- teachers, therapists, doctors, and others- will use their authority to protect those who are at risk of being abused; and this assumption is both a source of anxiety (for those who want to live and parent free from governmental oversight) and reassurance (for law enforcement and case workers working to identify at-risk individuals). Imagine our surprise, then, to learn that mandatory reporting practices are NOT a universal norm and that what constitutes ethical duty for therapists working with more complicated clients varies around the world. This week Wolf and Stef are joined by Dr. Caleb Jacobson, an American clinical psychologist and sex therapist living and working in Germany, who discusses how privacy policies and protective strategies vary around the world.
29. The Ask Us Anything Episode
Every week, Wolf and Stef bring you a conversation with someone they find interesting, or a topic that caught their attention. In other words? They ALWAYS get to choose what they talk about. Until today! In this episode, Wolf and Stef are joined by Frank Mons, Communications Director for The Bound Together Foundation. He's got a list of queries submitted by listeners and he's going to make sure you get answers to ALL your burning questions.... mostly. (This is a show about privacy, after all)
28. Defining Digital Health
"Everything good is bad for you", the old expression goes. You like steak? Here comes heart disease. You want to lay out on the beach? Hello, melanoma! You want to relax and play some video games? Well guess what, buddy... you're an addict! It's easy to make everything seem harmful when we don't have a solid. understand of what healthy looks like. That steak? Helps with anemia. Sunshine? Thanks for the Vitamin D, friend. And gaming- like anything- has pros and cons. This week we're joined by Drs. Markie Twist and Neil McArthur- a Marriage and Family Therapist and a philosopher respectively- to help us unpack what digital health looks like, and how to know when our love of tech might be going too far. You're going to feel a lot better after listening.
27. NOPE-lahoma: What's Happening in the Sooner State is Not OK
Mental health providers across the country are watching with trepidation and outrage as Oklahoma codifies a new rule that would require every licensed therapist to upload client data into a statewide shared system. This week, Stefani and Wolf explain why this is such a terrible idea for patients and providers. The state's Health Care Authority Board meets to discuss APA WF 22-16 just 72 hours after this episode airs. Listen now to find out what you can do to take action- no matter where you live.
26. The Gatekeepers: Net Neutrality and The Fight Over Who Decides What You See Online
Often confused for censorship or conflated with community standards, it seems like everyone has an opinion about about net neutrality... but few understand what it really entails. This week, Wolf and Stef are joined by facilitator, sex educator, and media justice advocate Bianca Laureano who helps us break the topic down, explore how it impacts our every day digital lives, and explain why this esoteric-sounding subject should matter to mental health providers, content creators, sexuality professionals, and laypeople alike.
25. Facebook, Flat Earth, and Fascism: What Wolf Wishes the Supreme Court Knew about Section 230
This term, the United States Supreme Court is set to rule on Section 230- the law that (it's been said) "created the internet." Like most laws, it's deceptively simple. And like many aging adults, the Justices aren't quite as up on their digital literacy as they could be. Their ruling (due late Spring) could dismantle the web as we know it. Or? It might result in a beautifully footnoted, legal shrug. But before they break out their briefs and start grilling their clerks about TikTok, it's time to answer the question... what does WOLF want them to understand about the 26 words that keep the memes a'flowing?
24. Use Me, Guide Me: Where Desire Meets Design
D-types spend a LOT of time thinking about how best to guide, direct, and nurture their submissives. User Experience (UX) designers do the exact same thing for every website visitor! This week we are joined by Stephanie Spiegal, AKA Miss Stevie, a User Experience Designer turned professional dominatrix who tells us all about how design thinking helps her create scenes for her submissives, while BDSM-style negotiations and consent processes inform her collaborations with her tech clients. In other words? Miss Stevie is right in the center of our Intimacy and Technology Venn... and she's holding a flogger.
23. My What A Big, Sexy Brain You Have
What do hacker cons, sexology cons, and GalaxyCon have in common (beside the fact that Wolf and Stef spent their December attending EACH of these events)? They all draw an audience of people who find smarts VERY sexy. This week, we're talking about sapiosexuality- sexual attraction to intelligence. And you don't have to be classically "booksmart" to have a big, sexy, brain. There are multiple intelligences and thousands of people who find them deeply desirable.
22. The Buddy System: App-Based Support Groups with Chandler Rogers
From Reddit and Instagram to WhatsApp and Slack, it seems like everyone carries their social circle around in their pockets these days. Self-help and support groups covering everything from grief and loss to substance use (and everything in between) exist everywhere from Facebook to 4Chan.
From a privacy perspective, this kinda makes Wolf wince!
But we can't deny the reality that society is moving towards ever more screen-mediated relationships; so we're excited to be joined by Chandler Rogers who shares the story behind his innovative new support platform, Relay Health, and helps Stef and Wolf explore the new reality of both clinician facilitated AND peer-to-peer telehealth communities.
21. Bye-Bye Books! Unpacking the Shame to Censorship Pipeline
This week Stef and Wolf reminisce about their favorite library memories, engage in some less-than-literary critique of Shakespeare and, and discuss the current situation in Florida, where books are being pulled our of classrooms and libraries until they can be vetted for compliance with Ron DeSantis's new educational (read: censorship) standards. Needless to say? These two bookworms have some thoughts.
20. The World Is Watching, an Interview with Albert Fox Cahn
The Executive Director of the New York based Surveillance Technology Oversight Project join us this week to discuss the policing of LGBTQIA+ communities, fighting for the rights of religious minorities, and the increasing role of surveillance in public policy and policing. Learn what gives Albert Fox Cahn hope and how he and his colleagues are fighting to make NY a privacy model for the nation.
19. Deviancy Dropout: What Stefani Learned by Dropping Out of School
In this weeks episode, Stef and Wolf discuss her status as a deviancy drop-out, Wolf gets to hear those three little words everyone wants to hear from their spouse, and they finally resolve one of their longest-running relationship conflicts: just how important is college, anyway?
18. Return Your Vibrator: Rowenna Fielding and Sex Toy Privacy
Rowenna Fielding, an expert in data privacy, governance and ethics, joins us this week to talk about the difference between sex toy security and privacy. Listen in as she and Wolf geek out over the tech behind the tools, Stefani explores how RACK (Risk Aware Consensual Kink) can be applied to our pleasure devices, and Rowenna discusses how to evaluate and select a new toy... and when to consider returning them.
17. Crocs Are Not Sexy: Wolf & Stef go to the AVN Expo
Happy New Year! Wolf and Stefani are back from their December sabbatical to report out on their trip to the Adult Entertainment Expo hosted by AVN. In this episode, they share their impressions as first-time attendees and discuss what surprised them, what excited them, and what left them a little confused. If you've ever wanted to know how a huge gathering of adult content creators and their fans could be downright wholesome, this is the episode for you!
Securing Sexuality is brought to you by The Bound Together Foundation, a 501(c)3 nonprofit: www.boundtogetherfoundation.org
16. Digital Community & Sex Worker Solidarity
This week we're talking to Dr. Kurt Fowler, Associate Professor of Criminal Justice at Penn State Abington AND the author of the forthcoming (tentatively titled) Virtually Yours: Sex Work and Digital Culture. Wolf and Stef talk to him about how marginalized workers use digital tools to foster safety and learn how we can best ally with those who make their livings by connecting with others in deeply personal ways.
15. Balls, Shaft, and Flippers
From it's origins as outlaw entertainment to its modern iteration as a somewhat old fashioned family-friendly activity, join Stef and Wolf at the Seattle Pinball Museum as they discuss what lessons we can learn about life, love, and lust from a decades old game.
14. Putting the V in Voice with Aimee Cloutier
Patient advocate and founder of HealthyHooha.com, Aimee Cloutier joins us this week to talk all about vulvovaginal health and the barriers that vulva-owners often experience when seeking healthcare. Wolf and Stef learn about the limitations of medical education, discuss what patients can do to speak up for their bodies and their wellness, and hear more about Aimee's passion for evidence-based health education. Whether you're someone with a vulva, or just happen to love someone who is, this episode is a must-listen.
13. No WHUT, November?!?!
It's November once again! That annual time when we think about Puritans, working up an appetite, and... abstinence? No Nut November might have gotten its modern start on social media, but the philosophical and (pseudo)scientific origins date back centuries. Join Wolf and Stef as they discuss the history, the science, the risks, and the potential benefits of choosing not to baste the turkey for a full 30 days.
12. On Safety & Strumpetry- A Conversation with Luna Lapine
Wolf and Stef are joined by Luna Lapine, erotic content creator and owner of Moon Rabbit Studios to talk about her safety awareness practices as a self-described "professional strumpet." Luna describes her first-hand experiences with risk mitigation as an adult artist and shares her love of Victorian cabinet cards featuring strumpets of yore.
11. Love On The Line- How Going Wireless Changed Our Relationships
From telegraph to teledildonics, people have leveraged technology to cultivate pleasure and intimacy for themselves and their partners. This week Stef and Wolf talk materials science, ISDN, and the illusion of control as they explore the evolution of teledildonics. Learn how these products evolved in step with the internet and what you need to consider before bringing a bluetooth enabled toy into your bedroom and your relationships.
10. Romancing Robots- A Chat with Dr. Erica Sarr
Stef and Wolf are recording live at the 2023 #ITalkSexualHealth Conference where they've lured Licensed Psychologist Dr. Erica Sarr into an abandoned mailroom to talk all things live, sex, and robots. Dr. Sarr is an expert in process addiction and mental health, specifically as these relate to video games and other technology. This week, she's talks to us about the pros and cons of sexualizing robots, the future of adaptive intimacy tech, and the ethics of romancing a machine. (Content Warning for this episode: we do touch briefly on the debate around the use of technology to treat people with p*dophilic urges)
Episode 9: 10,000 Years of T&A, Part 2
In this continuation of Wolf and Stefani's conversation about the history of erotica media over the last 75 or so years, Stefani discusses how moral panics and public health crises shaped the way in which we create and consume smut. From 16mm stag party films through the rise of interactive, user-created content, this episode explores the fascinating ways in which the worlds of sex and tech influence each other and drive innovation and connection.
Episode 8: The Road Not Taken- A Conversation with Cat Coode
Episode 7: 10,000 Years of T&A, Part 1
In this week's episode, Stefani battles a head cold in order to share what she learned about the history of sex tech while preparing for her recent Circle City Con presentation "Digital Desire: 10,000 years of Cyber Sex." In part one of this two-part series, she and Wolf chat about erotic innovations from 7200 BCE through the 1950's including a discussion of her favorite 19th century innovation that spurred enterprise, modernized communication, and thoroughly scandalized the British. What was this infamous device? Listen now to find out!
Episode 6: The Creepy Line- An Interview with Stephanie Hare
In this episode, we talk to Stephanie Hare, author of Technology Is Not Neutral: A Short Guide to Technology Ethics. She tells us all about third party data collection, scientists attempts to use AI to read someone's sexual orientation on their face, and why going cashless in the elementary school lunchroom can set children up for a problematic approach to relationships later in life. Stephanie's fascinating, a little bit terrifying, and here to help us all better navigate The Creepy Line.