
The Way of Product | A Podcast on Product Team Collaboration
By Caden Damiano
We explore the world of product teams and the operators in them. If you’re an aspiring leader looking to work ‘on’ rather than ‘in’ the business, this podcast is for you.
Explore product work with a design-thinking twist as we host experts who share insights on discovering, designing, and executing products and services that resonate. Tune in, learn, and elevate your teamwork and contributions to your business, job, and life.
This podcast is brought to you by Alquimi.

The Way of Product | A Podcast on Product Team Collaboration May 23, 2022

Case Study: Idea to a Successful Startup: Insights from Danny Morrow of Extend Payments | Ep 105
In this podcast, Danny Morrow, co-founder and Chief Innovation Officer at Extend Payments, shares valuable insights about his personal and professional growth. He discusses the magic of taking an idea to a successful startup, emphasizing the critical role of building culture, attracting the right team, and instilling a continuous learning mindset. He recounts how Extend Payments was conceived and developed and highlights the significance of creating a solid product-market fit, fostering strong relationships, and maintaining humility in the face of success. A central theme of his narrative is the importance of iterating, feedback, and remaining open to change and growth.
Connect with Danny: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danny-morrow/
Careers at Extend: https://www.paywithextend.com/careers
Subscribe to the Way of Product Newsletter: www.wayofproduct.com
00:36 The Journey from CTO to Chief Innovation Officer
03:12 The Role of a Chief Innovation Officer
03:22 The Intersection of Design and Technology
03:59 The Evolution of a Career in Technology
04:31 Building a Team and a Company Culture
05:13 The Role of Creativity in Technology
10:13 The Journey to Founding Extend
11:09 The Challenges and Rewards of Starting a Company
11:58 The Importance of Curiosity and Learning in a Startup
12:13 The Magic of Design and Technology
21:58 The Story of Extend's Inception
26:52 The Importance of Founder-Market Fit
28:40 The Excitement of Learning a New Industry
29:22 The Importance of Building a Strong Team
30:27 The Art of Delegation and Trust
32:48 Building a Positive Company Culture
34:11 The Evolution of a Startup
38:09 The Role of Creativity in Business
40:55 The Journey of Building a Product
43:15 The Importance of Feedback and Continuous Improvement
46:17 The Process of Marketing and Sales
54:56 Reflections on the Journey and the Future

How to Develop a Successful Startup Culture
Clip: How to Develop a Successful Startup Culture w/ Danny Marrow
wayofproduct.com

What Does a Chief Innovation Officer Do?
Clip: What Does a Chief Innovation Officer Do? W/ Danny Marrow

Founder Recounts the Early Days of His Startup
Clip: Founder Recounts the Early Days of His Startup w/ Danny Morrow

How to Stay Humble as a Successful Startup Founder
Clip: How to Stay Humble as a Successful Startup Founder w/ Danny Morrow

The Importance of Founder/Market Fit
Clip: The Importance of Founder/Market Fit w/ Danny Marrow

Who do you hold accountable when things go wrong?
Clip from: "Are Product Teams like a Dungeons & Dragons party? w/ Derlen Chiu VP of Product @ April EP 106"

"Way of Product" Book Trailer
Hey there! Are you interested in getting exclusive updates on my latest research for my book?
If so, join my newsletter at wayofproduct.com! My podcast is now focused on book research, and I want to share my progress with you. By subscribing, you'll get free updates on the book and receive a draft of the introduction sent to your inbox.
Don't miss out on this opportunity to be the first to know about my book's progress and any other project I have lined up.
Join the newsletter now at wayofproduct.com!

The Game of Product and How to Play It
Clip from: "Are Product Teams like a Dungeons & Dragons party? w/ Derlen Chiu VP of Product @ April EP 106"

When to step out of your lane and get things done.
Clip from: "Are Product Teams like a Dungeons & Dragons party? w/ Derlen Chiu VP of Product @ April EP 106"

104 - Breaking Down the UX Architect Role - Jeremy Miller UX Architect @ GE Aerospace
🎉 Series 7 Finale 🎉
In this episode, I chat about the UX Architect role and what it entails with Jeremy Miller, a UX architect for GE Aerospace.
Jeremy's podcast "Beyond UX Design"

103 - How to get leadership to adopt your research insights - Nick Russell and Dan Robins, CoFounders of Dualo
In this episode:
- The future of knowledge management.
- Difference between research reports and an insight repository.
- What the Dualo team is doing to close the insights/decisions gap.

102 - Breaking Down the Staff Designer Role - Larry Cheng, Design Strategist @ Intuit
Staff design is a competency level. It could have several specializations. One of them being a strategist.
Today I chat with Larry Cheng about how to progress in the IC path, and what is required on the staff designer career trajectory.

101 - A Crash Course on Uncovering Pain Points and Thinking in Bets — Pieter Limburg, CEO of Mobilo
How do you know if you have spotted a good idea?
In this episode, I chat with the CEO and Founder of Mobilo, a smart business card about evaluating pain points and how to be decisive in your product roadmap.

100 - The Path to the VP of Design Role - Clay Walter, VP of User Experience @ ProducePay
Design getting the seat at the executive table is still a steep hill to climb.
For the 100th episode of the show, I'm bringing my friend and longtime coworker Clay Walter to talk about his growth into the VP of Design role.
We discuss what you have to unlearn to become influential as a designer in your org and what is looked for in a VP of Design.

99 - How to Figure out Business Models, Pricing and Positioning for Your Product - Kevin Bailey, CEO of Design First
Today we learn from a veteran of the product design industry, Kevin Bailey from Product Design Agency "Design 1st".
We talk about abandoning the term designer in favor of "product development specialist" and what we need to focus on to increase the odds of success for our product in the market.

98 - Curating Great Design Teams - Justin Tan @ Turtle Design
Great teams make great products, great design teams get companies to the next level.
My guest is Justin Tan, Cofounder and Design Leader at Turtle Design.
In this episode, we chat about helping companies get the right design hires for any stage of growth.

97 - Breaking Down the VP of Product Role - Noam Grebel, VP of Product @ Doorloop
In this episode, I interview Doorloop's VP of Product, Noam Grebel, about the role of VP of Product.

96 - Why the Most Effective Leadership Style is Coaching - Jered Odegard, Director of Product Design @ Flyhomes
My guest today is Jared Odeguard, a design director and certified coach.
In this episode, we talk about the most proven and effective style of management: Coaching.

95 - A Tactical Guide To Building Self Sustaining Design Teams - Anjali Deswandikar @ Lollypop Design
My guest today has airdropped into multiple cities and set up fully functional design teams for the worldwide design agency Lollypop.
Anjali Deswandikar talks about hiring and establishing a design culture. We discuss diversity and how to foster it and scale something larger than yourself.

94 - The Laws of Creativity - Joey Cofone, Founder and CEO of Baronfig
How do you harness your ideas? How do you create things that are worth making? In this episode, I chat with Joey Cafone, author of "The Laws of Creativity" a comprehensive book on the creative process.

93 - Repost "Designing Google Assistant" Michael Greenberg and Margaret Urban
Repost of one of my top listened-to episodes. With a couple of Google conversation designers. Michael is currently working on conversation design at Meta.
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

92 - #short "What does impact look like?"
Audio essay on impact in stops in your career.
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

“What goes into building a valuable design team?” - Anthony Armendariz, Cofounder and Head of Design at Funsize Ep 91
Season 6 finale! In this episode, I talk with Anthony Armendariz about the culture he and his wife have built at Funsize, the prolific Austin TX-based design agency. We talk about reducing designer churn and the lessons he had to learn so he could grow Funsize.
Connect with Anthony: https://www.linkedin.com/in/anthonyarmendariz/
Work at Funsize: https://www.linkedin.com/company/funsize/
Listen to Anthony's podcast
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

90 - “Unpacking the Dedicated UX Research Role” - Varun Murugesan, Cofounder of Apple & Banana
I have personally never worked in a company with a dedicated UX researcher, so I reached out to, Varun Murugesan, one of the contributors to UX Research publication Apple & Banana, to learn how to properly utilize a full-time research role in a design org. Connect with Varun: https://www.linkedin.com/in/varunsmurugesan/ Check out Apple & Banana's new book.
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

89 - “Using Design to Drive Revenue” - Richie Lokay, VP of Design at Wunderkind
Imagine hiring a company whose value proposition is more revenue? That's the promise of Wunderkind, an agency based in NYC that uses creativity and design as levers to drive business growth. In this episode, I chat with their VP of design, Richie Lokay, about running a large design org the levers they focus on at Wunderkind to drive business growth.
Connect with Richie: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richielokay/
Work at Wunderkind: https://www.wunderkind.co/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

88 - “Unpacking the Product Design Role” - Peter Loving, Founder of UserActive
In this episode, I discuss the product design role with Peter Loving, owner of the agency, UserActive, and the differences between UX and Product Design. I recommend this interview to anyone wanting to figure out what specialty they are going to focus on in their career.
Connect with Peter: https://www.linkedin.com/in/peterloving/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

87 - “What does it mean to delight customers?” - Erica Kitaev, Senior Director of Product at Thomson Reuters Practical Law
In this episode, I talk with Senior Director of Product Erica Gann Kitaev about how emotion and sentiment can be big indicators of product success. This episode is a great deep dive on delight.
Connect with Erika: https://www.linkedin.com/in/egann/
Careers at Thomson Reuters: https://www.thomsonreuters.com/en.html
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

86 - “How long does innovation take?” - Ian Peterman, Founder of the Peterman Design Firm
In this episode, I chat with Ian Peterman, Founder of the Peterman Design Firm, about the value of time and consistency when working out innovations. This interview will get you hyped to stick to something long-term because that's what it takes to be an impact player in the industry.
Connect with Ian: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ianpeterman/
Work with the Peterman Firm
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

85 - “How to turn research insights into actionable decisions” Richard White, CEO and Founder of Fathom
In this episode, I talk with serial entrepreneur Richard White, founder of Fathom, about how he balances vision and execution, and how to translate research insights into actual product roadmap moves.
Connect with Richard: https://www.linkedin.com/in/rrwhite/
Download Fathom
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

84 - "How to reinvent yourself into a leader“ Pek Pongpaet, CEO of Impekable
In this episode, I talk to Pek Pongpaet, CEO of the almost decade-old agency Impekable, about the lessons he has had to learn to grow his agency by not designing. This is a great episode for designers who want to grow into business operators.
Connect with Pek: https://www.linkedin.com/in/pekpongpaet/
Careers at Impekable: https://www.impekable.com/
Listen to Pek's Podcast
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

83 - #Shorts - How Innovation Really Happens
A discussion on what good and bad strategy is and how innovation actually works.
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

82 - #Shorts - You Don't Need Permission to Do Great Work
Essay on how to carry yourself as a professional designer.
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

81 - #Shorts - Fake ideas and how to recognize them
How to identify ideas and requirements that are not backed by real discovery work.
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

80 - #Shorts - How to Create Meaning in Your Life
An essay on what it takes to create a meaningful career and life.
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

79 - How to Control Your Career - Taylor Palmer @ Range (ex Lucid)
Season 5 Finale!
In this episode I learn about excelling in your career by talking to Taylor Palmer.
Taylor has found that he grows most quickly on teams and in environment where there is a culture of experimentation. He tries to set aside 20% of his time to always be working on something that's not on the roadmap.
Taylor has had a steep growth curve since starting at Lucid fresh out of college. Within 5 years he became a director of UX there, and helped build a team of 20 designers. He also started an awesome side project called UX tools which is now the go-to resource for showing the top UX tools in the industry.
Connect with Taylor: https://www.linkedin.com/in/taylor-palmer-6264a171/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

78 - What Nobody Explains about the Design Process - Jordan Bowman @ Catylist
The design thinking philosophy outlines a way to think and approach product development. It isn't a process.
In this episode, I talk with co-creator of UX tools, Jordan Bowman, about the real day to day of a product designer.
We discuss:
-The job is not a linear process, so your methods change based on the problem.
-The best way to learn about UX, by breaking down methods and using scenarios to practice them.
-How to do consistent customer interviews by reducing your planning to a single focus you need solved right now.
Connect with Jordan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jrdnbwmn/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

77 - How to Manage Your Career - William Ntim @ Paypal
William needed a job, and even with a strong portfolio and track record, it took him three months to land on his feet.
William talks about how he learned to take control of his career from that day forward, so it no longer took "3 months" to find a new job.
William is the author of "101 Random UX Facts" and a Senior Designer at PayPal and former designer at Home Depot. This episode is a masterclass on hustling to get better career prospects.
Get Williams book: https://101randomuxtips.com/
Connect with William: https://www.linkedin.com/in/williamntim/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

76 - How to be Relaxed as a Designer - Bobby Lloyd @ United Health (ex Goldman Sachs)
The key to performance as designer is getting to a point where you are relaxed in the role.
I chat with Bobby Lloyd, a Principal at United Health and a former UX/UI Strategist at Goldman Sachs, about what needs to happen to become relaxed as a designer.
Bobby calls it being "organic" and a lot of it has to do with practice and getting over imposter syndrome. We dive deep in this one.
Connect with Bobby: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bobby-lloyd-52a8b35/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

75 - Lessons Learned from Operating a Design Agency - Janet Lee @ Impekable
In this episode I chat with Janet Lee on operating a design business.
Janet is Director Of Operations, Digital Agency for the prolific agency Impekable. Where she started off as a design intern. We discuss her shift from designing to becoming an operator of the business itself. Recommend this episode with anyone who is curious about operations in a design or product organization.
Find Janet here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janplee/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

74 - Regulating Unethical Design Patterns - George Serediuc @ Etich
This episode is about creating products that are designed to "generate value" for consumers, in place of "extracting value" from consumers. There is a big difference!
George Serediuc is a Principal Designer based in Romania. He runs a consultancy gig to help companies & institutions build inclusive digital products that are purposeful & human-centered.
We talk about the philosophy of user-centered design and I make a prediction of the end of free trials, as more regulation is created in digital products. Connect with George: https://www.linkedin.com/in/georgeserediuc/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

73 - Why are Designers Becoming PM's? - Bryan Mortensen @ Produce Pay
Why are designers moving into Product Managment roles?
I bring on an old guest, Bryan Mortensen, to talk about our recent discussions on why we both are considering moving into Product Managment one day.
We discuss designers losing influence at the business seat of the table, how product management is taking over aspects of design thinking we both like doing, and why having a solid PM is a game changer for a company.
Connect with Bryan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/bryanmortensen/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

72 - A Guide to Optimistic Innovation - Carey Jenkins, CEO at Substantial | Digital Innovation + Build Studio
In this episode, Carey Jenkins and I talk about Digital Optimism, a school of thought that empowers technologists to believe in the power of technological innovation to improve our lives and society.
Carey Jenkins is CEO of Substantial, a world-class product development studio based in Seattle, serving a diverse set of clients - from Fortune 50s like Google and Amazon to emerging start-ups and social impact organizations. (They are also hiring remote friendly positions)
Connect with Carey here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/careyvjenkins/
Check out Careers at Substantial Here: https://substantial.com/careers
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

UX Isn't a Magic Bullet and the "Non-Linear" Career - Michael Tinglin Ep 71
UX can be romanticized as a profession that can airdrop into any business and work miracles, when it's really just another stakeholder.
In this episode, I chat about the pitfalls of UX's rising popularity with Michael Tinglin. We also talk about the non-linear career, which is giving yourself the freedom to jump back and forth between IC and management roles as a design professional.
Michael has a lifetime of experience in the field, and provides some awesome nuggets of wisdom based off his decades of experiences working on innovative products and services for companies like 7-Eleven and Fanny Mae.
Connect with Michael here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaeltinglin/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

70 - "Lessons Learned from 3200 Design Leaders" - Adam Fry-Pierce @ Docusign
In this episode I chat with Adam Fry-Pierce, a former director of the design leadership forum at InVision and current head of design ops at Docusign.
He has personally onboarded and interacted with over 3200 design leaders in the DLF and has some takeaways and lessons from those experiences that you might find interesting. Topics we cover:
- If all design leaders have everything together.
- Leadership and Culture lessons.
- Diversity.
Connect with Adam here: https://www.linkedin.com/in/adamfp/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

69 - #Shorts — The Wealth that Comes from of Owning End to End Value Chains
Audio Essay on Winning Companies
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

68 - #Shorts — How to set yourself up for success as a designer
An audio essay on critical thinking
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

67 - #Shorts — The difference between complex and complicated
Why product work is about making complex things complicated.
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

66 - Reframing How You Look at Diversity in Design and Tech - Terrell Cobb @ Microsoft
In this episode I interviewed Terell Cobb, design leader at Microsoft and active leader in the Black UX community about diversity in design.
He eloquently reframed the diversity argument in a way that really resonated with and made sense to me:
"Its about exposing future designers to successful people that look like them, so they know what's possible in their career"
Connect with Terrell: https://www.linkedin.com/in/terellcobb/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.

65 - Designing for Large Ecosystems - Patrica Dwyer @ Intuit
In this episode, I chat with Patricia Dwyer, about designing for ecosystems.
Patricia is a content designer on Intuit's Platform Design team, and shares what the design challenges are in a platform environment.
Anyone interested in how design contributes to huge architectural efforts should give this a listen.
Connect with Patricia: https://www.linkedin.com/in/patriciabdwyer/
If you get any value out of this show, or if it has helped you in any way, please subscribe to “Thinking Out Loud About Design” for free to get the distilled learnings on being a staff-level individual contributor.