The Transform Justice Podcast

Many of our political leaders seem hell-bent on increasing conviction rates as well as sentence lengths for many crimes. But why? In this episode, hosts Rob and Penelope are joined by Rory Stewart, former prisons Minister and co-presenter of the Rest is Politics podcast, and Stephen Bush, associate editor at the Financial Times.

We explore how the last few decades of roller-coaster British politics have impacted the criminal justice system, what role the media and public opinion have to play in these contentious issues, and whether criminal justice has become the sacrificial lamb in the long march to Westminster.

This episode was recorded on 8th November 2023.

Rory Stewart @RoryStewartUK

The wrongful conviction of Andrew Malkinson has been making headlines since summer. But did you know that more than 1,500 potential miscarriages of justice are sent to the Criminal Cases Review Commission each year? Even more shockingly, less than 30 of these actually make it back to the Court of Appeal.

In this episode, hosts Rob and Penelope are joined by Dr Jon Robins, freelance journalist, and Matt Foot, co-Director of Appeal, to discuss the uphill battle to overturn wrongful convictions, and what happens after someone is confirmed innocent.

Jon Robins @JusticeGap

Problem-solving courts have long been hailed as a progressive alternative to traditional punishment. In theory, these experimental courtrooms recognise and address the root causes of crime and humanise those who come into contact with the criminal justice system. And some research shows they lead to better outcomes. But today we ask: are problem-solving courts the answer, or are they a barrier to putting resources where they really need to be?

Hosts Rob and Penelope are joined by Phil Bowen, Director for the Centre for Justice Innovation, and Jocelyn Simonson, Professor at Brooklyn Law School. They discuss why problem-solving courts have continued to attract interest, how they measure up to traditional forms of punishment, and where we should focus our efforts if we want to reduce crime.

Phil Bowen @CJInnovation

Read more about problem-solving courts and Phil’s work here: https://justiceinnovation.org/areas-of-focus/problem-solving-courts

Jocelyn Simonson @j_simonson

Order Jocelyn’s new book ‘Radical Acts of Justice: How Ordinary People Are Dismantling Mass Incarceration’ here: https://thenewpress.com/books/radical-acts-of-justice

Transform Justice

In this experimental episode of the Transform Justice podcast, hosts Penelope and Rob ask each other questions about their areas of expertise. Covering broad ground from prison overcrowding to the court backlog and digital justice, our hosts paint a picture of a justice system in crisis.

This episode asks why can't our justice system cope? And will current proposals help or hinder progress towards a fairer future for justice?

Sign up for CourtWatch London

https://transformjustice.eo.page/courtwatchlondon

Penelope Gibbs @PenelopeGibbs2

Find Penelope's work on courts and digital justice here: https://www.transformjustice.org.uk/podcast-insights/?news_category=insight

Rob Allen @RobRobAllen

Read Rob's blog here: http://reformingprisons.blogspot.com/

Further resources:

Annual Report of the Independent Monitoring Board at HMP/YOI Norwich:

https://imb.org.uk/document/norwich-2022-23-annual-report/

Less is more – the case for dealing with offences out of court:

https://www.transformjustice.org.uk/publication/less-is-more-the-case-for-dealing-with-offences-out-of-court/

Transform Justice

Abundant evidence shows that the criminal justice system disproportionately impacts minoritised communities, and many reports have made recommendations to tackle discrimination in the courts. Yet racist treatment of lawyers, defendants, witnesses, and even judges by other court actors persists.

In this episode, hosts Penelope and Rob are joined by Abimbola Johnson, barrister at Doughty Street Chambers, and Keir Monteith KC of Garden Court Chambers to discuss institutional racism in the criminal justice system and what steps must be taken for the judiciary to become anti-racist.

Abimbola Johnson @BarristerAbi

Learn more about Abimbola's work here: https://www.doughtystreet.co.uk/barristers/abimbola-johnson

Keir Monteith KC @gardencourtlaw

Read 'Racial Bias and the Bench', the report Keir co-authored with Professor Eithne Quinn et al, here: https://documents.manchester.ac.uk/display.aspx?DocID=64125

Further Resources

Baroness Casey Review: https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAssets/media/downloads/met/about-us/baroness-casey-review/update-march-2023/baroness-casey-review-march-2023a.pdf

The Lammy Review: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/643001/lammy-review-final-report.pdf

Transform Justice

PLEASE NOTE: This episode contains detailed and sometimes graphic descriptions of domestic abuse.

Although public awareness of domestic abuse has risen in recent decades, it remains a widespread issue. How the police and courts should respond to cases of domestic abuse is a huge topic of discussion within criminal justice, and many feel current processes do not do enough to support survivors.

In this episode, hosts Penelope and Rob are joined by Janika Cartwright, who survived an attempt on her life by her ex-partner and is a passionate advocate for restorative justice, and Jackie Sebire, retired police officer and co-author of Policing Domestic Abuse.

They discuss the nuances of domestic abuse, why people experiencing it may not go to the police, and what needs to be changed to prevent it where possible, and provide a better response to survivors when it does happen.

Janika Cartwright

Should asking for 50p or feeding pigeons land you in prison? In this episode we discuss anti-social behaviour injunctions, and the harsh outcomes that can occur when they are breached. 

Hosts Rob and Penelope are joined by Dr Rona Epstein, researcher at Coventry Law School, and James Stark, barrister. They share cases which resulted in disproportionately severe punishment, and question current approaches to anti-social behaviour.

Dr Rona Epstein @CovLawSchool

Read some of Rona’s recent work here: https://www.thejusticegap.com/anti-social-behaviour-law-punishing-the-poor-and-vulnerable/

James Stark @JHASTARKBAR

Read the Civil Justice Council report for which James was on the working party here: https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/ASBI-final-accessible.pdf

Further Resources

Read Penelope's blog on anti-social behaviour injunctions: https://www.transformjustice.org.uk/news-insight/in-praise-of-criminal-courts/

Transform Justice

There are wonderful success stories of people using time in prison to pursue education, learn new skills, and even earn degrees. But the reality of prison education is a lot more complex than many realise. Between staff shortages, waitlists, and limited resources, accessing appropriate education on the inside can be a minefield. In this episode, guests David Breakspear, peer mentor at Revolving Doors, and Ian Merrill, CEO of Shannon Trust, discuss the challenges facing prison education and why it is essential for promoting independence and improving opportunities for people in prison.

David Breakspear @RevDoors

Find David's writing, TEDx talk and more here: https://journeyofareformedman.wordpress.com/

Ian Merrill @Shannon_Trust

Learn more about Shannon Trust's programmes and sign up to volunteer here: https://www.shannontrust.org.uk/

Transform Justice

"Justice must not only be done, but must also be seen to be done." Lord Hewart's oft-quoted phrase is just as relevant almost 100 years on. In this episode, we ask how transparent justice processes are in two courts - the Court of Protection and the Family Court.

Hosts Rob and Penelope are joined by Sanchia Berg, BBC radio correspondent, and Celia Kitzinger, co-director of the Open Justice Court of Protection Project to discuss if and why some cases need to be shielded from public observation, barriers to accessing court hearings, and what could be improved to ensure that justice truly is seen to be done.

The notorious Post Office scandal saw a thousand people falsely accused of theft or false accounting because of a known computer system bug. The Post Office itself conducted the investigations and prosecutions which left some of its former employees imprisoned or bankrupt. In this episode, hosts Penelope and Rob are joined by Paul Marshall, barrister, and Richard Moorhead, Professor of Law at Exeter University to discuss how and why these events unfolded and why it took twenty years to uncover the truth.

Paul Marshall @cornerstonebarr

Read Paul's professional profile here: https://cornerstonebarristers.com/barrister/paul-marshall/

Richard Moorhead @RichardMoorhead

Read more of Richard's thoughts here: https://lawyerwatch.wordpress.com/author/lawyerwatch/

Transform Justice

More than 12 million people in England and Wales have a criminal record, many for old or minor offences. The vast majority have already moved on with their lives, but for many their criminal record still haunts them, preventing them from gaining employment or developing in their career. In this episode, our hosts Penelope and Rob bring together campaigning expertise from the UK and US contexts to discuss why the criminal records system is unfair and what needs to change. We hear from Jay Jordan, CEO of the Alliance for Safety and Justice in the US, and Chris Stacey, Director of Support and Development at Clinks, about the reality of living with a criminal record and campaigning efforts to build a fairer system on both sides of the pond.

Jay Jordan @misterjayjordan
Find out more about Jay's work and the Time Done campaign here: https://www.timedone.org/

Chris Stacey @ChrisStacey
Find out more about Chris here: https://www.clinks.org/user/117928

Further resources
Join the FairChecks campaign for criminal records reform here: https://fairchecks.org.uk/
Follow the campaign on Twitter @FairChecks

Transform Justice

Most crime has gone down in recent years, but police have been criticised for not resolving more of the crime that does happen. In this episode, hosts Penelope and Rob ask Richard Horton, retired police officer and prize-winning blogger, and Rick Muir, Director of the Police Foundation, what is preventing police from solving more crime. We discuss over-reliance on the police in cases better addressed by other public services, exacting recording standards, a changing crime landscape, and whether we should reallocate police funding to social services.

Richard Horton @iofiv
Listen to Richard's Thin Blue Mind podcast here: https://audioboom.com/channels/4785119
View Richard's Night Jack blog archive here: https://web.archive.org/web/20090510125846/http://nightjack.wordpress.com/

Rick Muir @the_police_fdn
Read the Police Foundation's strategic review of policing here: https://www.policingreview.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/srpew_final_report.pdf

Transform Justice

In this episode. we discuss different ways of resolving crime without going to court and ask why these methods are little used or understood despite evidence showing they can have a positive impact on preventing reoffending.

Should parents be prosecuted when their children miss school? Stories of term-time holidays dominate the news on this subject, but in this episode Rob and Penelope hear from Ellie Costello, Director of Square Peg, and Polly Sweeney of Rook Irwin Sweeney about the reality of persistent absenteeism: chronic illness, waitlists, and impossible attendance expectations. We discuss whether prosecution is the answer when children are frequently absent from school and how law-abiding families can suddenly find themselves facing prosecution while trying to navigate life-changing circumstances such as bereavement and cancer diagnoses.

Ellie Costello @teamsquarepeg
Learn more about Ellie's work at https://www.teamsquarepeg.org/

Polly Sweeney @polly_sweeney
See Polly's bio at https://rookirwinsweeney.co.uk/?specialist=polly-sweeney

Further Resources
Listen to our dedicated episode on the single justice procedure here: https://anchor.fm/transform-justice/episodes/Ep1-Conveyor-belt-justice-e1jc541/a-a81l1ee

Transform Justice

Can someone be convicted of murder if they weren't the one who wielded the knife? According to the legal doctrine known as joint enterprise, yes they can. In this episode Rob and Penelope are joined by Jan Cunliffe, Director of campaigning group JENGbA, and Nisha Waller, PhD researcher at the University of Oxford, to explore this controversial common law which can see ten children convicted for a crime carried out by just one of their number. They discuss the types of evidence used to imply guilt in joint enterprise cases, including claims of gang affiliation and lyrics from drill music, and perceived miscarriages of justice resulting from cases which see young boys given life sentences for crimes in which they had little to no involvement.

Jan Cunliffe @Jliffe

Find out more about Jan and the campaigning group JENGbA at https://jointenterprise.co/

Nisha Waller @NishaWaller4

Read more about Nisha's research at https://www.law.ox.ac.uk/people/nisha-waller-0

Further Resources

Read the Centre for Crime and Justice report 'The Usual Suspects' at https://www.crimeandjustice.org.uk/publications/usual-suspects

Read a summary of the Jogee supreme court ruling at https://justice.org.uk/r-v-jogee-appellant/

Transform Justice

This week rather than talking about people accused or suspected of rule breaking, we ask why most people comply with rules and regulations most of the time. Our hosts Penelope and Rob are joined by Tim Newburn, Professor of Criminology and Social Policy at LSE, and Adam Wagner, barrister at Doughty Street Chambers to discuss the prerequisites for social compliance, how norms such as smoking indoors changed over time, and the challenges presented by Covid-19.  What can the pandemic tell us about public compliance in the UK?

Professor Tim Newburn @TimNewburn

Tim's book Orderly Britain can be found here: https://www.hachette.co.uk/titles/tim-newburn/orderly-britain/9781472137968/

Adam Wagner @AdamWagner1

Adam's book Emergency State can be found here: https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/453539/emergency-state-by-wagner-adam/9781847927460

Further Resources

LSE research into Covid-19 compliance following the Dominic Cummings incident: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/public-compliance-covid19-june/

Transform Justice

It may sound like the plot of a Dickens novel, but there are children in the UK who are coerced by adults into performing criminal activity every day. In most cases, this involves children being tasked with selling or delivering illegal drugs. In this episode, our hosts are joined by Aika Stephenson, Legal Director of Just for Kids Law, and Dr Grace Robinson, an expert witness in cases involving child criminal exploitation. They discuss the characteristics that typically make children vulnerable to exploitation, how children are coerced into performing illegal activities, and how the justice system responds to such cases.

Aika Stephenson @Justforkidslaw

The number of hate crimes recorded by police in England & Wales rose by over a quarter from 2021 to 2022. At the same time, some politicians have expressed concern that police are spending too much time investigating what Liz Truss has referred to as 'Twitter rows and hurt feelings'. In this episode, hosts Penelope and Rob discuss hate crime and how society should address it with Neil Chakraborti, Professor of Criminology at the University of Leicester, and Tony Burnett, CEO of Kick It Out, an organisation which tackles discrimination in football. 

Neil Chakraborti @NeilChakraborti

View Neil's academic profile, including his extensive research on hate crime here: https://le.ac.uk/people/neil-chakraborti
Listen to Neil's Hidden Hate podcast here: https://hiddenhatepodcast.com/

Tony Burnett @kickitout

Learn more about Kick It Out and ways you can help make football a more inclusive sport here: https://www.kickitout.org/

Transform Justice

Most experts agree that decriminalisation of drug possession and more robust social policy are the answer to drug-related harms. In December 2021 the government published a 10-year plan to tackle drug-related crime in the UK, aiming to cut supply and improve treatment options. But a new white paper building on this plan promises harsher-than-ever sanctions for recreational drug use, contrary to all evidence around what works to address this issue. In this episode, Rob and Penelope speak with Alex Stevens, Professor in Criminal Justice at the University of Kent, and Ian Birrell, journalist about the plans and ask whether the government is taking the right approach.

Professor Alex Stevens @AlexStevensKent

So far, we've mainly discussed issues relating to people accused of crime. In this episode, we turn the tables and talk about what victims of crime really want. Hosts Penelope and Rob are joined by Lucy Jaffé, Director of the charity Why me? and Darryn Frost, who witnessed the terror attack on London Bridge in 2019 and helped restrain the attacker until police arrived. In the context of the government's Victim's Bill - the first of its kind - we discuss the ways in which the justice system fails victims, and what could be done to truly empower people affected by crime, give them a voice in the aftermath, and help resolve the harm they've experienced.

Lucy Jaffé @whymeUK

In 2021 the government announced that it would dedicate £4 billion to building 20,000 new prison places by the mid-2020s. These plans have been faced with opposition from criminal justice experts and local communities. In this episode, Penelope and Rob are joined by Dr Kate Paradine, Chief Executive of Women in Prison and Nick Hardwick, Professor in Criminal Justice at Royal Holloway University of London to discuss why the government is expecting such an increase in the prison population, whether we need more prison places, and if the government can actually deliver on their proposals.

Kate Paradine @klparadine

The pandemic saw an uptick in the use of remote technology in justice processes, with everything from legal advice in police stations to court hearings suddenly taking place online. The use of technology allowed practitioners to keep calm and carry on despite restrictions, but now that lockdown has ended, questions remain about the future of video technology in our justice system and its impact on fair trial rights. Penelope and Rob are joined by Dr Natalie Byrom, Director of Research at the Legal Education Foundation, and Stephen Davies, defence solicitor at Tuckers, to discuss the potential dangers of video technology and if (and when) it should be used in the future.

Dr Natalie Byrom @NatalieByrom

The parole system in England and Wales has been the subject of much debate and scrutiny in recent years. In this episode, we take a look at the factors that go into the decision to release someone from prison, and ask whether the system is up to task. Hosts Rob and Penelope are joined by Nicky Padfield, Professor of Criminal and Penal Justice at the University of Cambridge, and Dr Laura Janes, consultant solicitor for GT Stewart, to talk about proposed changes to parole outlined in the government's Root and Branch Review and whether these changes would make the parole system fairer.

Professor Nicky Padfield @cambridgelaw

In this episode we discuss a very emotive crime - people being violent or abusive towards police and NHS workers. Recent legislation has increased the maximum sentence for assaulting an emergency worker to 2 years - four times the maximum for assaulting anyone else. Penelope and Rob are joined by Caitriona Mclaughlin from Stokoe Partnership Solicitors and Mark Brown, former police officer and current PhD student at the University of Southampton to discuss whether harsher sentences will reduce violence and abuse towards police and NHS staff and what else could be done to prevent such incidents from happening.

Caitriona Mclaughlin @StokoePartners

In this episode we explore pre-trial imprisonment, otherwise known as remand. The remand process allows people who have not been found guilty of a crime to be kept in prison, sometimes for months or even years, while awaiting trial. Rob and Penelope are joined by Griff Ferris of Fair Trials, and May Robson, who has researched the use of remand for foreign national women, to discuss why we imprison people before trial and what could be done to decrease the number of people stuck in this limbo.

This episode shines a light on the experiences of children aged 10 to 18 held in police custody. On average, children suspected of committing a crime are held in a windowless cell for 11 hours with nothing to do and often no one to talk to. Rob and Penelope along with guests Mel Stooks, solicitor for the firm GT Stewart, and Dr Vicky Kemp, Principal Research Fellow at the University of Nottingham, discuss what this experience is like for children and provide practical suggestions for how it could be improved.

This episode looks at the single justice procedure. It's the way most crimes in England and Wales are prosecuted, but many people have never heard of it. Penelope and Rob are joined by guests Naima Sakande, Deputy Director for the charity Appeal and Tristan Kirk, courts reporter for the Evening Standard, to discuss what the single justice procedure is, how it works, and where it's going wrong.